Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy.  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, New Web Page. http://www.edginton.info/arc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy.  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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I think you overstate the facts.   —- Again!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. >  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years > of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal > cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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 You forgot , of course, Central house Vacs. And how about the outside venting ones,  No dust blown in, all blown outside.. Just to remind you of course.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. >  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power >  taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten > years of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments > on the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found > at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase > personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

It sounds like whut yall bees describling is one of them thar house cats. Since one of the descriptions is the fact that they blow, perhaps yall could recover some of that thar to regenerate some sort of usefull thang like an air ionizer. Maybe they should have named this group >>> ALT.ENERGY.HOME.ELECTRICAL.POWER DAVE (COB)

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haven’t you spammed usenet enough with this? — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. >  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years > of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal > cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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>>Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > Please stop now, before you get as bad as that Feerguy. > Posting the same crap over and over will accomplish nothing, > except to earn you a pathetic kind of fame in the bowels of > a thousand killfiles.

Bjay isn’t reading the newgroup, just posting his spam. Insult him all you want to, the idiot won’t notice. He’s made a trivial change to standard vacuum cleaner design, and is hyping it like crazy hoping to sell cheap underpowered "cleaners" at absurdly inflated prices. CM

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I have only just realized what has been happening Virgin my server have been having trouble and consequently I have only just received all the posting. My replies to news groups did not show up on the news group and I have had to resort to a number of test postings to find this out. I have to apologies for any inconvenience or frustration I have caused. My only purpose is to bring to the attention of mankind a better and safer way of cleaning their home and to save the vast amount of power that is being wasted. Spaming is the last thing I want to inflict on anyone. Bjay   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > haven’t you spammed usenet enough with this? > — > Steve Spence > Renewable energy and sustainable living > http://www.green-trust.org > Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive > a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to > the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of > biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels. > Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. >  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten >  years > of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase >  personal > cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Please let me try explain, in the Air Recycling Cleaner because the air is >returned at pressure to the intake of the cleaning head the amount of energy >required to do a given amount of work is reduced. this allows the motor to >be much smaller in size or the power to the motor can be reduced. >In the machine that is shown on my web pages cleaning up a pile of hairs and >dust, the input to the motor is turned down to 250 watts. >because of this the heat that it generates is less than the heat generated >by the 1500 watt plus conventional vacuum cleaners. > I concede it will be reduced, but not by much. You are introducing air > into the atmosphere over various surfaces, dropping the pressure.

I have just pointed out that 1500 watts has been reduced to 250 watts. >The model of cleaner I now use for my prototypes has a paper dust bag, and >because of the smaller motor power and reduced backpressure in the Air >Recycling Cleaner, will separate and contain the dust that becomes suspended >in the air stream. > All filtering systems have their limits, and your PPM of untrapped > microparticles will climb – just as dirt accumulates in the bag > and heat accumulates in the air. >the volume of air drawn into the cleaner is complimented by an equal

amount       of air that is returned from the motor. >The expansion chambers compensate for heat expansion caused by any >change of temperature of the air as it passes through the motor. >It has not been found necessary to use independent cooling for the motor. >But surely the Dyson cleaners blow out large volumes of air into the room >and this disturbs dust and germs lying about in the room > That’s an assumption, not a fact. Walking, running, pets, fans, >sea-breezes, children etc, also disturb ‘dust and germs’ lying > about in the room. This Dyson model (DC05) actually blows air > to the rear and slightly upwards.

         possibly  back towards your face ?    I don’t know if you remember the old (GE?) Satellite cleaner – the > globe style that blew air out the bottom. Now *that* really > did disturb the air.

 Yes I still have one somewhere probably in the attic collecting dust >The energy waste is a very important to many people who would think >it more important than the health issue.

 > >By bringing the two arguments together I hope to encourage >Government action on this matter. > That’s a bad premise for a business model. Fixing two wrongs > won’t make it right for gov’t attention.

Two for the price of one sounds good to me but I will have to wait and see. > Add a solar charger and you might hit gold. After all, there > are many robotic domestic cleaners that don’t use wires.

I think I will stick to what I am doing now if you don’t mind. . >It has taken over ten years to bring it to its present stage and >some of the things you mention were at one time troublesome but >have now been satisfactorily overcome.

I don’t see how you can be so knowledgeable about my Air Recycling Cleaner, as you have never tried one you can only make assumptions about it. But if  you ever come this way email me and I will arrange for you to get hands on experience of an air recycling cleaner and I feel sure you would then change your opinion and realise it is a superior cleaner. 1/.No smell, 2/.Light to push, 3/.More work for less power. 4/.Quieter in use. 5./Does not blow air back into the room, 6/.Safe for Asthmatics to use. what more can you want. http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Cheers Ben Edginton

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > Clearly, there are better alternatives than the typical cheap > plastic glorified carpet sweeper that most people seem to > purchase. I don’t think your particular unit is the best > alternative. > Central vacuum systems release contaminated air outside the home > environment. Any air they "blow" (as opposed to "suck") is on > the exhaust side and therefore away from furniture or the inside > air. I don’t know about how much energy they use but since a > vacuum cleaner is used for only brief periods of time this does > not seem very important. In fact, a unit that uses a lot more > power but for much shorter periods of time (say, it has a lot > more suction) would use much less total energy. I don’t think > it’s possible to get a vacuum cleaner without some noise but a > central vac has the power unit in an entirely different part of > the building so I think that’s as close as you can get. Lastly, > no vacuum cleaner should smell. If it does then that indicates > a malfunction of some kind. > Anthony

But they do sell scent sachets to put into the dust container. Thanks for your interest . Ben http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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>More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, >http://www.edginton.info/project1 >http://www.edginton.info/cafc > I don’t buy the argument that recycled air reduces the > power consumption dramatically, and I also don’t see > anywhere that addresses the technical problems that > would be faced by such a cleaner, namely that recycled > air using a traditional motor fan/pass-thru cooling would > overheat in minutes.

Please let me try explain, in the Air Recycling Cleaner because the air is returned at pressure to the intake of the cleaning head the amount of energy required to do a given amount of work is reduced. this allows the motor to be much smaller in size or the powered to the motor can be reduced. In the machine that is shown on my web pages cleaning up a pile of hairs and dust, the input to the motor is turned down to 250 watts. because of this the heat that it generates is less than the heat generated by the 1500 watt plus conventional vacuum cleaners. > Recycled air in a perfectly closed environment will also > heat up, but not to the detriment of the motor if it has > separate cooling. > I didn’t see what your solution for filtering was. A closed > system will gather fine particles and eventually saturate > the air being used. Given that the system is not a perfectly > closed environment, the system will undoubtedly shed air during > operation, and without perfect filtering, leave the usual trace > of microfine particulates in its wake. > I would guess that the system would shed about 20% of the air > volume through various seal and head flow inefficiencies. If it > were pushing through 100cfm, that’s 20cfm of loss.

The model of cleaner I now use for my prototypes has a paper dust bag, and because of the smaller motor power and reduced backpressure in the Air Recycling Cleaner, will separate and contain the dust that becomes suspended in the air stream. In practice there is no shedding of air, the volume of air drawn into the cleaner is complimented by an equal amount of air that is returned from the motor.The expansion chambers compensate for heat expansion caused by any change of temperature of the air as it passes through the motor. It has not been found necessary to use independent cooling for the motor. > The motor load comes from pushing air through a filter, > and no matter what you do about recovering the air, the > filter remains a constant, if not rising load factor. > IMHO, you can’t have a decent recycled air system without > using a cyclone and a really large area HEPA filter to decrease > the pressure and achieve your ‘low consumption’ targets.

–> Research made by the, North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK.  Says that. High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats. I have pasted a copy with links onto my web pages. Your first step is to licence a proper cyclone from Dyson > and then back it up with an appropriate motor design and > microfine particulate filter, and finally make something > that resembles a steroidal Dyson because of the return > flow tubes.

The cyclone system does nothing special for the air recycling cleaner but I see your point. > I dislike upright cleaners and your designs are nominal. > I’m not saying that it can’t or shouldn’t be done, just > that this isn’t a bolt-on solution and that the demand > will not be universal. You might replace 1 in 50 > cleaners over a decade, and that’s big money if you > create a realistic solution. > But your science and your facts will have to be very > very good indeed to trounce Dyson in the low-emission machine > stakes,

But surely the Dyson cleaners blow out large volumes of air into the room and this disturbs dust and germs lying about in the room >and believe me, Dyson will take your > and give it a lab test to see if it lives up to its > claims.

He has probably already already built and tested an air recycling cleaner but I don’t think he would ever market anything  to put his own machine into second place.  > And price? Well, that’s another story. I paid 400 pounds > for the Dyson just because of what it was, and I don’t > care if it uses 100W or 2000W providing it performs. > Consumption just isn’t a factor. > All that windmill & windfarm crap is argumentative fluff that > has no bearing at all on the main purpose of the cleaner – > that of providing a contaminant-reducing cleaning system. You > are adding an emotional argument on an already reasonable > position. > You have to decide which is important. Consumption or > contamination.

The energy waste is a very important to many people who would think it more important than the health issue, By bringing the two arguments together I hope to encourage Government action on this matter. Thank you for  replying to my posting, I hope I have answered some of your questions, it is difficult to explain to anyone how well this machine works without a demonstration. Forty volunteers tested one in their own home over many weeks.  In their written report they said it was better than the machine they normally used , these included Dyson cyclone cleaners It has taken over ten years to bring it to its present stage and some of the things you mention were at one time troublesome but have now been satisfactorily overcome. http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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>1/.No smell,

Doubtful. When the system shuts off, the overburdened small air volume will leak out, if not by itself when switched off, then when opened up unless you whip it outside just as you turn it off. >2/.Light to push,

Lighter than what? Only the airflow has changed. >3/.More work for less power.

Still not convinced. >4/.Quieter in use.

Well, if you aren’t pumping as much air, of course. >5./Does not blow air back into the room,

Except for 20%, imho. >6/.Safe for Asthmatics to use.

I’m an Asthmatic, they’ve always been safe except for the worst cleaner designs with the most sensitive ‘matics. >what more can you want.

Something more convincing than untested theory. I know you guys have hacked together a prototype or three, but your claims for the possible end product go beyond my assessment of it. So that’s a big IMHO from me and a challenge for you. I say it will leak, it will be of insufficient power and have operational problems from under-engineering. Ask Sir Clive. He knows the ultimate price of under-engineering. His products never lasted in the marketplace. You have to have a concept of what it means to have a 2% return rate for faults, and what a disaster it is to have 10% returned for not performing as claimed. Do you know how traditional makers will combat your model? They’ll simply say that theirs has better suction and a more ‘efficient’ motor with three times the power. For your product to become a defacto standard that people will still buy in 2020 because it satisfies their needs, you have to excel in just one factor that is important to the product. I’m telling you now, it is not the power consumption. The only products I’ve purchased based on consumption are lights. If I was the marketer/investor for this product, I would seize on the most important element of its reason for existence and transform the entire product around that one thing. So, I’ve had my say, you’ve had yours. I’m not saying don’t do it, just to do one thing really well and take the consequences of the pursuit of excellence in one direction as your *next* challenge. S —

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I need to reiterate something I only touched on lightly before… If you recycle the air and your particulate sizes are below your filter’s ability to hold them, they will build up in the air and you’ll have a rather dense few litres of suspended nasties to contend with when you’ve finished. If, however, your filter does trap everything and lets only clean air out, you don’t need to recycle the air, as a simple upward exhaust with a low pressure dissipation will suffice. So I now doubt that the focus was ever on anything as useful as a low-allergy device, but simply on lower power through recycling with a potential ‘bonus’ of helping the allergy stricken. I should’ve worked that out a little quicker that it was an ass-backwards scheme when I first read your Windmill lecture. S —

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>Please let me try explain, in the Air Recycling Cleaner because the air is >returned at pressure to the intake of the cleaning head the amount of energy >required to do a given amount of work is reduced. this allows the motor to >be much smaller in size or the powered to the motor can be reduced. >In the machine that is shown on my web pages cleaning up a pile of hairs and >dust, the input to the motor is turned down to 250 watts. >because of this the heat that it generates is less than the heat generated >by the 1500 watt plus conventional vacuum cleaners.

I concede it will be reduced, but not by much. You are introducing air into the atmosphere over various surfaces, dropping the pressure. There’s no such thing as a "no work" situation as the air velocity will level out according to the overall efficiency of the input and output sides of the airflow loop. Your 250W motor *might* achieve the same as a 500W open in/out cleaner if all design factors were in your favour. As pointed out, however, by one other poster, wattage is not an issue to buyers, and consumption reduction is useful but not mandatory. You need considerable suction to pick up sand and other small/heavy particles. The majority of the wattage goes towards achieving a velocity given the other factors of bag/cyclone/hose/head/fan. The air will heat up and while you might conceivably dissipate enough heat from cooling a small motor, the small volume of recycled air will heat up to an unacceptable level. You just can’t keep adding heat into the loop without taking it out somewhere – hence the need to separate motor cooling from the cycle, as I believe you will find that 250W isn’t enough. >The model of cleaner I now use for my prototypes has a paper dust bag, and >because of the smaller motor power and reduced backpressure in the Air >Recycling Cleaner, will separate and contain the dust that becomes suspended >in the air stream.

All filtering systems have their limits, and your PPM of untrapped microparticles will climb – just as dirt accumulates in the bag and heat accumulates in the air. >In practice there is no shedding of air,

Sorry, but as soon as it enters the atmosphere, turbulence and various low pressure zones will mean that some cycled air will be lost and replaced with external air, plus leakage points. >the volume of air drawn into the >cleaner is complimented by an equal amount of air that is returned from the >motor.The expansion chambers compensate for heat expansion caused by any >change of temperature of the air as it passes through the motor. >It has not been found necessary to use independent cooling for the motor. >But surely the Dyson cleaners blow out large volumes of air into the room >and this disturbs dust and germs lying about in the room

That’s an assumption, not a fact. Walking, running, pets, fans, sea-breezes, children etc, also disturb ‘dust and germs’ lying about in the room. This Dyson model (DC05) actually blows air to the rear and slightly upwards. I don’t know if you remember the old (GE?) Satellite cleaner – the globe style that blew air out the bottom. Now *that* really did disturb the air. >The energy waste is a very important to many people who would think >it more important than the health issue. >By bringing the two arguments together I hope to encourage >Government action on this matter.

That’s a bad premise for a business model. Fixing two wrongs won’t make it right for gov’t attention. The right way to marketing is to solve the most popular problem as step one and sell it. Then introduce a low power model as step two if you can retain the effiencies of the first model. Add a solar charger and you might hit gold. After all, there are many robotic domestic cleaners that don’t use wires. >It has taken over ten years to bring it to its present stage and >some of the things you mention were at one time troublesome but >have now been satisfactorily overcome.

Perhaps, but you are assuming rather much. I’d like to hear your method of proof for 100% containment, because that’s the biggest claim you have that will be shot down in the first lab test. S —

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> The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly.

Clearly, there are better alternatives than the typical cheap plastic glorified carpet sweeper that most people seem to purchase. I don’t think your particular unit is the best alternative. Central vacuum systems release contaminated air outside the home environment. Any air they "blow" (as opposed to "suck") is on the exhaust side and therefore away from furniture or the inside air. I don’t know about how much energy they use but since a vacuum cleaner is used for only brief periods of time this does not seem very important. In fact, a unit that uses a lot more power but for much shorter periods of time (say, it has a lot more suction) would use much less total energy. I don’t think it’s possible to get a vacuum cleaner without some noise but a central vac has the power unit in an entirely different part of the building so I think that’s as close as you can get. Lastly, no vacuum cleaner should smell. If it does then that indicates a malfunction of some kind. Anthony

Response:

>More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, >http://www.edginton.info/project1 >http://www.edginton.info/cafc

I don’t buy the argument that recycled air reduces the power consumption dramatically, and I also don’t see anywhere that addresses the technical problems that would be faced by such a cleaner, namely that recycled air using a traditional motor fan/pass-thru cooling would overheat in minutes. Recycled air in a perfectly closed environment will also heat up, but not to the detriment of the motor if it has separate cooling. I didn’t see what your solution for filtering was. A closed system will gather fine particles and eventually saturate the air being used. Given that the system is not a perfectly closed environment, the system will undoubtedly shed air during operation, and without perfect filtering, leave the usual trace of microfine particulates in its wake. I would guess that the system would shed about 20% of the air volume through various seal and head flow inefficiencies. If it were pushing through 100cfm, that’s 20cfm of loss. The motor load comes from pushing air through a filter, and no matter what you do about recovering the air, the filter remains a constant, if not rising load factor. IMHO, you can’t have a decent recycled air system without using a cyclone and a really large area HEPA filter to decrease the pressure and achieve your ‘low consumption’ targets. Your first step is to licence a proper cyclone from Dyson and then back it up with an appropriate motor design and microfine particulate filter, and finally make something that resembles a steroidal Dyson because of the return flow tubes. I dislike upright cleaners and your designs are nominal. I’m not saying that it can’t or shouldn’t be done, just that this isn’t a bolt-on solution and that the demand will not be universal. You might replace 1 in 50 cleaners over a decade, and that’s big money if you create a realistic solution. But your science and your facts will have to be very very good indeed to trounce Dyson in the low-emission stakes, and believe me, Dyson will take your machine and give it a lab test to see if it lives up to its claims. And price? Well, that’s another story. I paid 400 pounds for the Dyson just because of what it was, and I don’t care if it uses 100W or 2000W providing it performs. Consumption just isn’t a factor. All that windmill & windfarm crap is argumentative fluff that has no bearing at all on the main purpose of the cleaner – that of providing a contaminant-reducing cleaning system. You are adding an emotional argument on an already reasonable position. You have to decide which is important. Consumption or contamination. That’s my opinion on your proposition. S —

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Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy.  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

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I never vacuum. Some people are still living in the 20th century. Just set your phasor to clean and zap that dust away. Even Tesla used free energy to zap his dust away. The truth is out there, just ask George Bush.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. >  The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years > of testing.

Response:

> I wonder how many carbs are in the blood of young children? I do hope > they take that into account if ever they are diagnosed. Would put a > real dampener on those Bilderburger group satanic orgies if they had > to miss out on the kids blood cocktails > Seriously, non-diabetics usually run about 85 mg/dl of blood glucose, with > really young children possibly running lower.  So we’re talking about less > than a gram of carb per liter.

Serious, Eric?? About Icke?? Leaving that, I did not know young children ran lower, I hope to have grandchildren some time in the next 3 years, and that little piece of info might come well come in useful. — Al, Melton Mowbray, uk, LADA dx Jan97 Control basal/Beef lente bolus/Novorapid I do not experiment, I AM the experiment.

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> Leaving that, I did not know young children ran lower, I hope to have > grandchildren some time in the next 3 years, and that little piece of info > might come well come in useful.

I can only speak for my children and my neighbour’s two young kids.  I have had either diabetes, gestational diabetes or reactive hypoglycemia for 25 years.  I got my first meter 17 years ago.  I test my children every few months at random times.  The reason I do it is because my children’s father also has type 2 and we both have big family histories of type 2, one child has Down syndrome (higher risk for diabetes).  Their readings are always between 5 and 6, no matter their age or time of day or food intake etc. The child with Down syndrome has gone as high as 14.0 while on prednisone for asthma, we try to avoid steroids unless really necessary.  The reason I test my neighbour’s kids is because one has Down syndrome also (but has prednisone much more frequently than my child with DS. His bg’s don’t rise with prednisone) and her 3 year old actually begs to be tested.  I am not worrying about my grandchildren at this point but my adult daughters will know the family history and I will probably test them early in any pregnancies – earlier than the usual bg testing of pregnancy.  Three of my children have been born with very low bg’s requiring wrapping in foil and formula given immediately after birth until bg’s rise.  This is common in babies born to mothers who have gestational diabetes. BP is another kettle of fish, all of my younger kids (13 and under) have very low BP’s.

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> I wonder how many carbs are in the blood of young children? I do hope > they take that into account if ever they are diagnosed. Would put a > real dampener on those Bilderburger group satanic orgies if they had > to miss out on the kids blood cocktails

Seriously, non-diabetics usually run about 85 mg/dl of blood glucose, with really young children possibly running lower.  So we’re talking about less than a gram of carb per liter.

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> Does that include his stated belief that President Bush and Prime Minister > Blair drink the blood of young children?

I wonder how many carbs are in the blood of young children? I do hope they take that into account if ever they are diagnosed. Would put a real dampener on those Bilderburger group satanic orgies if they had to miss out on the kids blood cocktails Phildo

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> David Icke is no doubt gives new meaning to the word unconventional. But he > has been bang on the mark in his predictions on Bushes shenanigans.

Does that include his stated belief that President Bush and Prime Minister Blair drink the blood of young children? > David Icke’s views on medical ailments are in keeping with his

Icke has no qualifications in medicine or anything else. > off-the-beaten-track theories. Sugar is in his opinion a cause of many

Sugar is the cause of nothing at all, and Icke is a standing national joke in the uk of 60 million laughing at him, so when you associate yourself with any of his beliefs you also become the fool joke of 60 million people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ailments from diabetes to attention deficit disorder.  He compares refined > sugar to lsd, and believes it to be a tool in the hands of illuminati (ie > fake jews, freemasons and blond-haired blue-eyed shape-shifting aliens who > are in the know) as a means of control over the masses. Strangely, David > Icke is also blonde haired and blue eyed. He beleives that the architects of > the new world order encourage the consumption of sugar to cause diabetes and > other health problems and then instil a dependency on drugs (such as Ritalin > for ADD) and insulin to increase profits for the pharmaceuticals and control > over the world. > Many of his views goes beyond the borders of conventional wisdom, but he > justifies this on the basis that "todays nut is tomorrows mighty oak" > Go figure

I just figured you, and that`s for sure. — Al, Melton Mowbray, uk, LADA dx Jan97 Control basal/Beef lente bolus/Novorapid I do not experiment, I AM the experiment.

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David Icke is no doubt gives new meaning to the word unconventional. But he has been bang on the mark in his predictions on Bushes shenanigans. David Icke’s views on medical ailments are in keeping with his off-the-beaten-track theories. Sugar is in his opinion a cause of many ailments from diabetes to attention deficit disorder.  He compares refined sugar to lsd, and believes it to be a tool in the hands of illuminati (ie fake jews, freemasons and blond-haired blue-eyed shape-shifting aliens who are in the know) as a means of control over the masses. Strangely, David Icke is also blonde haired and blue eyed. He beleives that the architects of the new world order encourage the consumption of sugar to cause diabetes and other health problems and then instil a dependency on drugs (such as Ritalin for ADD) and insulin to increase profits for the pharmaceuticals and control over the world. Many of his views goes beyond the borders of conventional wisdom, but he justifies this on the basis that "todays nut is tomorrows mighty oak" Go figure

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jdlar has quoted David Icke as being a scientist. In fact, Icke (pron eye-k) > used to be a sports presenter on UK TV, specially snooker and pool. He went > off his rocker, believed that he himself was the Second Coming of Christ, > then started his own website dedicated to quoting the evidence against him > as if it were evidence for him, preaches like the religious maniac he is… > You get the picture, I`m sure. > Anyone who quotes Icke (as support, instead of discrediting him) is > therefore also a religious nutter. > I post this to warn those outside the UK who may not be aware of Icke`s > mental instability. > — > Al, Melton Mowbray, uk, LADA dx Jan97 > Control basal/Beef lente bolus/Novorapid > I do not experiment, I AM the experiment.

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<snip> > I post this to warn those outside the UK who may not be aware of Icke`s > mental instability.

David Icke, the ex Coventry Coventry city goalie is a loon. He really does need some serious medicine. I mean 12ft shape shifting lizards. On the other hand it’s always nice to know there are others who are worse off than you. ie propper mad. David_G http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_618781.html        Ananova:       ‘Son of God’ Icke to present Sci-Fi Channel show David Icke, the former BBC presenter who stunned the nation when he announced he was the Son of God, is to make a TV comeback. Icke made an infamous appearance on Terry Wogan’s chatshow in 1991 wearing a turquoise shellsuit which he claimed brought him closer to God. More recently he declared that the world is run by shape-shifting 12ft lizards and accused leaders including George Bush and Henry Kissinger of taking part in human sacrifice and blood drinking. Icke, 50, has been signed up by the Sci-Fi cable and satellite channel for his first TV presenting job in over a decade. He will share his bizarre beliefs with viewers on the surreal Saturday night show Headf**k. He said: "I hope I can pass on a few thoughts and ideas to the Sci-Fi channel to encourage people to see that they are living in a conditioned illusion and we can change it any time we want. We can be people and not sheeple." Icke, a former Coventry City footballer and Green Party spokesman, was presenting BBC Grandstand when he underwent his unlikely transformation. During his Wogan appearance he announced that 1991 would see Britain devastated by tidal waves and earthquakes. He became a laughing stock but has spent the past 11 years touring the world giving lectures on his collection of conspiracy theories. The new series of Headf**k will begin on July 20. Story filed: 11:32 Sunday 30th June 2002 begin 666 blank.gif $8RL`.P“ ` end

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Jdlar has quoted David Icke as being a scientist. In fact, Icke (pron eye-k) used to be a sports presenter on UK TV, specially snooker and pool. He went off his rocker, believed that he himself was the Second Coming of Christ, then started his own website dedicated to quoting the evidence against him as if it were evidence for him, preaches like the religious maniac he is… You get the picture, I`m sure. Anyone who quotes Icke (as support, instead of discrediting him) is therefore also a religious nutter. I post this to warn those outside the UK who may not be aware of Icke`s mental instability. — Al, Melton Mowbray, uk, LADA dx Jan97 Control basal/Beef lente bolus/Novorapid I do not experiment, I AM the experiment.

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> Thank you all for the prayers, thoughts and words. > Surgery is over and she should be back in her room by now. I talked to > my sis about an hour ago and she was expected up in about 30 minutes. > My sis is running on adrenlin because since the child couldn’t eat, > she didn’t eat and it was 4 hours past the surgery time and she still > hadn’t eaten! She’s running on Dr. Pepper and I don’t think she’s even > noticed.

<snipped> Glad to hear it all went well! Children seem to bounce back very quickly from surgery, much more quickly than as adults – partly because they probably don’t stress in the same (long-term) way, plus their bodies grow and heal so quickly. — Katharine S.   Don’t be irreplaceable. If you can’t be replaced, you can’t be promoted. — Katharine S.   Don’t be irreplaceable. If you can’t be replaced, you can’t be promoted.

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So glad to hear this news!! She should do fine now…remember we really only need one kidney to function…so having one and a half she should do great… rb Hawki

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> So glad to hear this news!! > She should do fine now…remember we really only need one kidney to > function…so having one and a half she should do great…

YES! LOL…yes that is what we did.  She’s got a 3 1/2 inch scar on her back and only when the nurse tried to pick her up under her arms to help her up on the bed has she expressed much pain. She’s home, Dad was out looking for a child recliner last I heard.  :-) Thanks again for all the wishes.

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YES !!!!!! Ronnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you all for the prayers, thoughts and words. > Surgery is over and she should be back in her room by now. I talked to > my sis about an hour ago and she was expected up in about 30 minutes. > My sis is running on adrenlin because since the child couldn’t eat, > she didn’t eat and it was 4 hours past the surgery time and she still > hadn’t eaten! She’s running on Dr. Pepper and I don’t think she’s even > noticed. > The discovery was GOOD news. It was a simple fluid filled cyst and > they only had to remove the top half of her kidney, leaving the lower > portion, with all the important blood vessels and "things" intact. > They went a little past the "fingers" on the cyst to ensure they > removed all. Many of these things will grow back if you don’t remove > every teeny bit. The doc said it was huge, and he had to burst it to > get past it, something he didn’t normally like to do. > They had to first trace everything from the kidney to the bladder once > inside, so the first half of the surgery was this. They doublecheck > everything down to the bladder before doing anything. They said all > things looked fine..no double anything, so this was reassuring. > I can relate to the concern over one kids….out of 4 of us, 7 > grandkids and 3 great-grandkids, Abby was the first to encounter any > type of medical issue. We feel blessed and feel that yet again. My > sister even commented that seeing some of the kids at the Ronald > McDonald House and in the playrooms at the hospital helped put Abby’s > troubles in perspective. Doesn’t make it less scary but makes you be > thankful for small favors. > Thanks again all. Very kind of you.

Response:

Thank you all for the prayers, thoughts and words. Surgery is over and she should be back in her room by now. I talked to my sis about an hour ago and she was expected up in about 30 minutes. My sis is running on adrenlin because since the child couldn’t eat, she didn’t eat and it was 4 hours past the surgery time and she still hadn’t eaten! She’s running on Dr. Pepper and I don’t think she’s even noticed. The discovery was GOOD news. It was a simple fluid filled cyst and they only had to remove the top half of her kidney, leaving the lower portion, with all the important blood vessels and "things" intact. They went a little past the "fingers" on the cyst to ensure they removed all. Many of these things will grow back if you don’t remove every teeny bit. The doc said it was huge, and he had to burst it to get past it, something he didn’t normally like to do. They had to first trace everything from the kidney to the bladder once inside, so the first half of the surgery was this. They doublecheck everything down to the bladder before doing anything. They said all things looked fine..no double anything, so this was reassuring. I can relate to the concern over one kids….out of 4 of us, 7 grandkids and 3 great-grandkids, Abby was the first to encounter any type of medical issue. We feel blessed and feel that yet again. My sister even commented that seeing some of the kids at the Ronald McDonald House and in the playrooms at the hospital helped put Abby’s troubles in perspective. Doesn’t make it less scary but makes you be thankful for small favors. Thanks again all. Very kind of you.

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Healing wishes and good vibes on the way. Lil’ Kid Hugs from Rosie — "If you wanna get it done, you gotta fight for yourself."  – Meat Loaf, Bat Outta Hell II – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tomorrow at 9:30, my 5 year old niece will undergo surgery to remove > all or part of her kidney. Several years ago after numerous UTI’s she > was sent to Vandy for some tests. MRI showed a "fluid filled" cyst on > the top of her kidney. Vandy said "let’s watch it" and scheduled her > to come back the following year. They took her back for the second > appt only to find that the cyst, that was once 3cm x 6cm, is not 6cm x > 9cm. They again, said "let’s watch it". My sister who didn’t feel > comfortable with that took her to B’ham’s Children’s Hospital who > dwelved into it deeper. Said that it has "fingered" itself down into > her kidney and should come out.  To remove it will take at least half > of her kidney and perhaps all. > I was reading some stuff my sister printed out while down there at > Thanksgiving. This child is EXCEPTIONALLY bright, speaking whole > sentences at one, and can carry on a conversation as well as some of > my 18 year old’s friends now, but she was 11.14 pounds when born. She > is overweight still. My sister and I noted some similarities between > some diseases…one of which is Addison (sp?) Disease and a couple > more I can’t recall the names at the moment. We wonder, if the Adrenal > Gland involvement of this cyst might somehow be responsible for her > weight. She is a beautiful child, precocious as all get out, and she > runs none stop, beautiful blue eyes with the intelliegence very > obvious. > The docs have put no name to anything other than this cyst. THey first > thought it might be an extra kidney that never developed (birth > defect) and several things my sis said, made me believe they aren’t > really sure what it is until they get in there. After surgery and > hearing the facts on what they find, will mean we either pursue some > of the other things or are satisfied with their findings. > She had to go for a pre-surgery screening today, especially as she had > pneumonia last month and has asthma. Surgery got the go ahead so its > tomorrow. Please have her in your thoughts and prayers tomorrow. I > feel horrible about not driving down to be with my sis, but my brother > and her husband is there. My tires were just too bad to attempt the > drive and I had to decide between Christmas for my kids or my tires. > My sis assured me she would be fine but she’s one of those who got her > grad degree swearing never to get married, and when she did, she kept > her  name. It was only after the first child came that she changed her > name and if I say she is an "anxious" mom…thats an understatement. > They are staying at the ROnald McDonald House, and from my experience > has volunteering at two of them in the past, perhaps this will > actually help her. If things go as we HOPE, it will put into > perspective her child’s surgery. I will have my thoughts to the sky > until we hear some post surgery news. It really bothers me, after my > last long medical talk with my sis, how little they seem to know about > this "cyst". I would think in this day and time they would know > more..she’s had CT scans and MRI’s. > Anyway..got really long winded here…apologies. Please keep us in > your prayers tomorrow. Her name is Abby and just a delightful little > girl. She said every morning this week…"Mom, I just can’t help but > worry about my surgery".  :-)

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> Tomorrow at 9:30, my 5 year old niece will undergo surgery to remove > all or part of her kidney. Several years ago after numerous UTI’s she

<snip> I hope I am not too late for the surgery, am sure she and her family can still use a prayer for recovery and the road ahead.  She is in my prayers today.

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I’m not big on praying, but when i do, it tends to be for things like this. I have a 4 1/2 year old, so it’s close to home for me as well. My kids have all been exceptionally healthy, for which my gratitude never ceases. The odds of a child having something go wrong early in life is actually pretty high, especially when you have more than one child…and I have 4. The worst thing for us so far was when my youngest needed tubes in her ears at 6mos. old. Not too bad, considering all the things that could go wrong with a child. And as a parent, my greatest fear in life is something happening to one of my children, and not having control over the situation. So, my prayers are with Abby, and your entire family. I hope she recovers quickly and completely! Trailingvine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Tomorrow at 9:30, my 5 year old niece will undergo surgery to remove >all or part of her kidney. Several years ago after numerous UTI’s she >was sent to Vandy for some tests. MRI showed a "fluid filled" cyst on >the top of her kidney. Vandy said "let’s watch it" and scheduled her >to come back the following year. They took her back for the second >appt only to find that the cyst, that was once 3cm x 6cm, is not 6cm x >9cm. They again, said "let’s watch it". My sister who didn’t feel >comfortable with that took her to B’ham’s Children’s Hospital who >dwelved into it deeper. Said that it has "fingered" itself down into >her kidney and should come out.  To remove it will take at least half >of her kidney and perhaps all. >I was reading some stuff my sister printed out while down there at >Thanksgiving. This child is EXCEPTIONALLY bright, speaking whole >sentences at one, and can carry on a conversation as well as some of >my 18 year old’s friends now, but she was 11.14 pounds when born. She >is overweight still. My sister and I noted some similarities between >some diseases…one of which is Addison (sp?) Disease and a couple >more I can’t recall the names at the moment. We wonder, if the Adrenal >Gland involvement of this cyst might somehow be responsible for her >weight. She is a beautiful child, precocious as all get out, and she >runs none stop, beautiful blue eyes with the intelliegence very >obvious. >The docs have put no name to anything other than this cyst. THey first >thought it might be an extra kidney that never developed (birth >defect) and several things my sis said, made me believe they aren’t >really sure what it is until they get in there. After surgery and >hearing the facts on what they find, will mean we either pursue some >of the other things or are satisfied with their findings. >She had to go for a pre-surgery screening today, especially as she had >pneumonia last month and has asthma. Surgery got the go ahead so its >tomorrow. Please have her in your thoughts and prayers tomorrow. I >feel horrible about not driving down to be with my sis, but my brother >and her husband is there. My tires were just too bad to attempt the >drive and I had to decide between Christmas for my kids or my tires. >My sis assured me she would be fine but she’s one of those who got her >grad degree swearing never to get married, and when she did, she kept >her  name. It was only after the first child came that she changed her >name and if I say she is an "anxious" mom…thats an understatement. >They are staying at the ROnald McDonald House, and from my experience >has volunteering at two of them in the past, perhaps this will >actually help her. If things go as we HOPE, it will put into >perspective her child’s surgery. I will have my thoughts to the sky >until we hear some post surgery news. It really bothers me, after my >last long medical talk with my sis, how little they seem to know about >this "cyst". I would think in this day and time they would know >more..she’s had CT scans and MRI’s. >Anyway..got really long winded here…apologies. Please keep us in >your prayers tomorrow. Her name is Abby and just a delightful little >girl. She said every morning this week…"Mom, I just can’t help but >worry about my surgery".  :-)

"To live happily is an inward power of the soul." Marcus Aurelius

Response:

Keeping Abby and the rest of you in my prayers. Please let us know how the surgery goes, and take good care of yourselves too.   Julie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tomorrow at 9:30, my 5 year old niece will undergo surgery to remove > all or part of her kidney. Several years ago after numerous UTI’s she > was sent to Vandy for some tests. MRI showed a "fluid filled" cyst on > the top of her kidney. Vandy said "let’s watch it" and scheduled her > to come back the following year. They took her back for the second > appt only to find that the cyst, that was once 3cm x 6cm, is not 6cm x > 9cm. They again, said "let’s watch it". My sister who didn’t feel > comfortable with that took her to B’ham’s Children’s Hospital who > dwelved into it deeper. Said that it has "fingered" itself down into > her kidney and should come out.  To remove it will take at least half > of her kidney and perhaps all. > I was reading some stuff my sister printed out while down there at > Thanksgiving. This child is EXCEPTIONALLY bright, speaking whole > sentences at one, and can carry on a conversation as well as some of > my 18 year old’s friends now, but she was 11.14 pounds when born. She > is overweight still. My sister and I noted some similarities between > some diseases…one of which is Addison (sp?) Disease and a couple > more I can’t recall the names at the moment. We wonder, if the Adrenal > Gland involvement of this cyst might somehow be responsible for her > weight. She is a beautiful child, precocious as all get out, and she > runs none stop, beautiful blue eyes with the intelliegence very > obvious. > The docs have put no name to anything other than this cyst. THey first > thought it might be an extra kidney that never developed (birth > defect) and several things my sis said, made me believe they aren’t > really sure what it is until they get in there. After surgery and > hearing the facts on what they find, will mean we either pursue some > of the other things or are satisfied with their findings. > She had to go for a pre-surgery screening today, especially as she had > pneumonia last month and has asthma. Surgery got the go ahead so its > tomorrow. Please have her in your thoughts and prayers tomorrow. I > feel horrible about not driving down to be with my sis, but my brother > and her husband is there. My tires were just too bad to attempt the > drive and I had to decide between Christmas for my kids or my tires. > My sis assured me she would be fine but she’s one of those who got her > grad degree swearing never to get married, and when she did, she kept > her  name. It was only after the first child came that she changed her > name and if I say she is an "anxious" mom…thats an understatement. > They are staying at the ROnald McDonald House, and from my experience > has volunteering at two of them in the past, perhaps this will > actually help her. If things go as we HOPE, it will put into > perspective her child’s surgery. I will have my thoughts to the sky > until we hear some post surgery news. It really bothers me, after my > last long medical talk with my sis, how little they seem to know about > this "cyst". I would think in this day and time they would know > more..she’s had CT scans and MRI’s. > Anyway..got really long winded here…apologies. Please keep us in > your prayers tomorrow. Her name is Abby and just a delightful little > girl. She said every morning this week…"Mom, I just can’t help but > worry about my surgery".  :-)

Response:

Dont you ever apolize for being long winded!  I am sorry I didnt get this until late this morning.  I hope and pray by now that the surgery is going as good as to be expected and you will let us know as soon as you know.. Ronnie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tomorrow at 9:30, my 5 year old niece will undergo surgery to remove > all or part of her kidney. Several years ago after numerous UTI’s she > was sent to Vandy for some tests. MRI showed a "fluid filled" cyst on > the top of her kidney. Vandy said "let’s watch it" and scheduled her > to come back the following year. They took her back for the second > appt only to find that the cyst, that was once 3cm x 6cm, is not 6cm x > 9cm. They again, said "let’s watch it". My sister who didn’t feel > comfortable with that took her to B’ham’s Children’s Hospital who > dwelved into it deeper. Said that it has "fingered" itself down into > her kidney and should come out.  To remove it will take at least half > of her kidney and perhaps all. > I was reading some stuff my sister printed out while down there at > Thanksgiving. This child is EXCEPTIONALLY bright, speaking whole > sentences at one, and can carry on a conversation as well as some of > my 18 year old’s friends now, but she was 11.14 pounds when born. She > is overweight still. My sister and I noted some similarities between > some diseases…one of which is Addison (sp?) Disease and a couple > more I can’t recall the names at the moment. We wonder, if the Adrenal > Gland involvement of this cyst might somehow be responsible for her > weight. She is a beautiful child, precocious as all get out, and she > runs none stop, beautiful blue eyes with the intelliegence very > obvious. > The docs have put no name to anything other than this cyst. THey first > thought it might be an extra kidney that never developed (birth > defect) and several things my sis said, made me believe they aren’t > really sure what it is until they get in there. After surgery and > hearing the facts on what they find, will mean we either pursue some > of the other things or are satisfied with their findings. > She had to go for a pre-surgery screening today, especially as she had > pneumonia last month and has asthma. Surgery got the go ahead so its > tomorrow. Please have her in your thoughts and prayers tomorrow. I > feel horrible about not driving down to be with my sis, but my brother > and her husband is there. My tires were just too bad to attempt the > drive and I had to decide between Christmas for my kids or my tires. > My sis assured me she would be fine but she’s one of those who got her > grad degree swearing never to get married, and when she did, she kept > her  name. It was only after the first child came that she changed her > name and if I say she is an "anxious" mom…thats an understatement. > They are staying at the ROnald McDonald House, and from my experience > has volunteering at two of them in the past, perhaps this will > actually help her. If things go as we HOPE, it will put into > perspective her child’s surgery. I will have my thoughts to the sky > until we hear some post surgery news. It really bothers me, after my > last long medical talk with my sis, how little they seem to know about > this "cyst". I would think in this day and time they would know > more..she’s had CT scans and MRI’s. > Anyway..got really long winded here…apologies. Please keep us in > your prayers tomorrow. Her name is Abby and just a delightful little > girl. She said every morning this week…"Mom, I just can’t help but > worry about my surgery".  :-)

Response:

Tomorrow at 9:30, my 5 year old niece will undergo surgery to remove all or part of her kidney. Several years ago after numerous UTI’s she was sent to Vandy for some tests. MRI showed a "fluid filled" cyst on the top of her kidney. Vandy said "let’s watch it" and scheduled her to come back the following year. They took her back for the second appt only to find that the cyst, that was once 3cm x 6cm, is not 6cm x 9cm. They again, said "let’s watch it". My sister who didn’t feel comfortable with that took her to B’ham’s Children’s Hospital who dwelved into it deeper. Said that it has "fingered" itself down into her kidney and should come out.  To remove it will take at least half of her kidney and perhaps all. I was reading some stuff my sister printed out while down there at Thanksgiving. This child is EXCEPTIONALLY bright, speaking whole sentences at one, and can carry on a conversation as well as some of my 18 year old’s friends now, but she was 11.14 pounds when born. She is overweight still. My sister and I noted some similarities between some diseases…one of which is Addison (sp?) Disease and a couple more I can’t recall the names at the moment. We wonder, if the Adrenal Gland involvement of this cyst might somehow be responsible for her weight. She is a beautiful child, precocious as all get out, and she runs none stop, beautiful blue eyes with the intelliegence very obvious. The docs have put no name to anything other than this cyst. THey first thought it might be an extra kidney that never developed (birth defect) and several things my sis said, made me believe they aren’t really sure what it is until they get in there. After surgery and hearing the facts on what they find, will mean we either pursue some of the other things or are satisfied with their findings. She had to go for a pre-surgery screening today, especially as she had pneumonia last month and has asthma. Surgery got the go ahead so its tomorrow. Please have her in your thoughts and prayers tomorrow. I feel horrible about not driving down to be with my sis, but my brother and her husband is there. My tires were just too bad to attempt the drive and I had to decide between Christmas for my kids or my tires. My sis assured me she would be fine but she’s one of those who got her grad degree swearing never to get married, and when she did, she kept her  name. It was only after the first child came that she changed her name and if I say she is an "anxious" mom…thats an understatement. They are staying at the ROnald McDonald House, and from my experience has volunteering at two of them in the past, perhaps this will actually help her. If things go as we HOPE, it will put into perspective her child’s surgery. I will have my thoughts to the sky until we hear some post surgery news. It really bothers me, after my last long medical talk with my sis, how little they seem to know about this "cyst". I would think in this day and time they would know more..she’s had CT scans and MRI’s. Anyway..got really long winded here…apologies. Please keep us in your prayers tomorrow. Her name is Abby and just a delightful little girl. She said every morning this week…"Mom, I just can’t help but worry about my surgery".  :-)

Response:

>Ok, I changed my mind as I got to thinking about this and the reply I >sent. Back then, steroid inhalers were non existent and that was the >way it was given. >However, the military gives a combination of shots all at one time. >Don’t know what the soilder does now who is in military and has asthma >and he/she takes a steroid inhaler when they have to have the shots to >go to their foreign assignment.

We roll up our sleeves just like everybody else.  If your asthma prevents you from getting the shots necessary for overseas deployment and combat – you will be medically seperated/retired. >OT: earlier yesterday on C-Span2 there was a wonderful program about >the effect of a combination of shots given to children now and their >mother all at one time and what they have observed that wasn’t given >to us older now people in their 50-60 ages and it was scary. This was >a private group of doctors and others. I usually don’t listen or watch >this but this was an eye opener. Only time I was given a combination >all at one time was going overseas with parents. Otherwise back then, >stationed stateside we were given the combination separately at >different times. Measles, smallpox,chickenpox,etc. Had parents ask >question to the doctors,etc. and the stories they told of what had >happened to their children having the combination all at one time.

Don’t allow the media to make medical decisions for you.  This sort of thing will focus on what will get your attention instead of what is accurate.  If they cannot produce actual statistics – then they are probably giving you hype. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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> Known asthmatics are not accepted for military service.  In the UK they > are also not accepted for the Fire Service, but mild ones may be > accepted into the Police.

Funny, my father managed to get in and work his way through the ranks from Private Soldier to Major in 28 years service. Despite taking Sodium Cromoglycate all his working life. — Dr. Paul Cummins (ULC) – Always a NetHead Wasting bandwidth since 1981

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>Ok, I changed my mind as I got to thinking about this and the reply I >sent. Back then, steroid inhalers were non existent and that was the >way it was given. >However, the military gives a combination of shots all at one time. >Don’t know what the soilder does now who is in military and has asthma >and he/she takes a steroid inhaler when they have to have the shots to >go to their foreign assignment.

Known asthmatics are not accepted for military service.  In the UK they are also not accepted for the Fire Service, but mild ones may be accepted into the Police. <snip> — Five Cats

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Ok, I changed my mind as I got to thinking about this and the reply I sent. Back then, steroid inhalers were non existent and that was the way it was given. However, the military gives a combination of shots all at one time. Don’t know what the soilder does now who is in military and has asthma and he/she takes a steroid inhaler when they have to have the shots to go to their foreign assignment. OT: earlier yesterday on C-Span2 there was a wonderful program about the effect of a combination of shots given to children now and their mother all at one time and what they have observed that wasn’t given to us older now people in their 50-60 ages and it was scary. This was a private group of doctors and others. I usually don’t listen or watch this but this was an eye opener. Only time I was given a combination all at one time was going overseas with parents. Otherwise back then, stationed stateside we were given the combination separately at different times. Measles, smallpox,chickenpox,etc. Had parents ask question to the doctors,etc. and the stories they told of what had happened to their children having the combination all at one time. Michelle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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 (The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices [ACIP] advises against non-emergency use of smallpox vaccine in anyone under 18 years of age.) These people should not receive the vaccine unless they have been exposed to smallpox. OK, I disagree– Being an Army Brat during Occupied Japan and into the 1960’s, My late Mom had asthma and was given the Smallpox shot then for Japan, and going to France in the 1950’s. Then I was 5-7 yrs old then I had to have the Smallpox Vaccine to go to Occupied Japan and then To France in the above time. Had the Smallpox vaccine the last time in early 1960’s when going into Mexico for vacation. Then I had no asthma, I am still here. I have the scar on my arm . Michelle

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A rare occurance with  inhaled steroids seen more with oral and IV setroids Bruce

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >http://www.bt.cdc.gov/training/smallpoxvaccine/reactions/contraindica…. h >tml >> This may be a real problem, since it’s possible to get systemic >> absorption from an inhaled steroid and not yet know it–until you’re >> administered the smallpox vaccine. > Or if you have bipolar disorder go manic.. > Cortisone causes mania in persons with bipolar disorder. > =- "REMEMBER THE OAK"-= >  *=-And keep an eye on yer truk-=* >  This post wasn’t anonymized at http://www.xganon.com

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->What still bothers me with the steroid portion of the above >statement is that it is way to broad. Do they include inhaled >steroids, someone on a prednisone burst, just people on a long term >steroid treatment. > Here are some more precise guidelines: > "Replication of vaccinia virus can be enhanced among persons with > immunodeficiency diseases and among those with immunosuppression > (e.g., as occurs with leukemia, lymphoma, generalized malignancy, > solid organ transplantation, cellular or humoral immunity disorders, > or therapy with alkylating agents, antimetabolites, radiation, or > high-dose corticosteroid therapy [i.e., >2 mg/kg body weight or 20 > mg/day of prednisone for >2 weeks] [66])." > http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5010a1.htm > "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are > times when we must fight for our country, that, > indeed, there are things – our liberty, our > democracy, our belief in human rights and human > dignity – worth fighting for." > Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

Thanks Colin! That was exactly what I was looking for. The prednisone burst and taper I’m on now leaves me over or at 20mg per day for 15 days (and under for 6 days). Sounds like a good idea to stay away from this vaccine while on or recently on a taper of this type. Spent the day bouncing from office to office working on the groundwork to get my asthma back under control. It’s amazing the trouble a sinus infection can cause (among other issues). Hope you had a nice Holiday and best wishes for a Happy New Year (hopefully they let you have some fun on base or on leave). Dan Rhea "Loyalty is for family, friends and country, not operating systems, compilers and computers"   – Dan Rhea, 1986

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>Actually the best value of a mass vaccination campaign is that it >deters an attack in the first place.  (What good does loosing smallpox >on people who are immune do?)

If they are really immune, agreed, little. >Besides, I am of the firm belief that it is better to take >preventative measures before an event than to react to the event.  

You’re betting on everyone getting an effective vaccine, made years ago, watered down, and one which may not work, as you assume it will. >You always have to take ‘Murphy’s Law’ into account.  

Another good reason to wait and see what bug or toxin becomes the actual enemy. >Besides, the more people vaccinated before an attack mean that > fewer people will have to be vaccinated after an attack.

There will likely be a redundancy of the pre-attack vaccination population getting the post-attack vaccine.  

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>>There is also the possibility of being infected by coming in contact >with infected clothing and bedding, or a terrorist who is wearing an >infected person’s clothing.  Droplet saliva and the pustules/scabs >contain virus. >But there is a very limited number of people he can get in this >manner.  Without enough susceptible hosts the disease will not be able >to spread.

It doesn’t need to spread to be an effective terrorist weapon. Look what a few letters containing Anthrax did.

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>>Actually the best value of a mass vaccination campaign is that it >deters an attack in the first place.  (What good does loosing smallpox >on people who are immune do?) >If they are really immune, agreed, little.

Now given that the official US response to an attack using weapons of mass destruction is to respond with our own weapons of mass destruction.  Any doubt in an attackers mind concerning the effectiveness of his agent works to our advantage. >Besides, I am of the firm belief that it is better to take >preventative measures before an event than to react to the event.   >You’re betting on everyone getting an effective vaccine, made years >ago, watered down, and one which may not work, as you assume it will.

It is better than nothing – and if it is too old to be effective, better to find out before an attract than after. >Besides, the more people vaccinated before an attack mean that > fewer people will have to be vaccinated after an attack. >There will likely be a redundancy of the pre-attack vaccination >population getting the post-attack vaccine.  

There will be people asking to be re-vaccinated.  However, they can wait. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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>>But there is a very limited number of people he can get in this >manner.  Without enough susceptible hosts the disease will not be able >to spread. >It doesn’t need to spread to be an effective terrorist weapon. >Look what a few letters containing Anthrax did.

The anthrax letter were nothing more than a large scale harassment attack.  In the military there is a clear distinction between a harassment attack and a destruction attack.  I am more concerned about destruction attacks than harassment attacks. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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> I emailed the cdc and this is the response I got.  UM MOM Susan <snip> > Who should NOT get the vaccine? … > HIV positive, are receiving treatment for cancer, or are taking medications > (like steroids) that suppress the immune system. (The Advisory Committee on > Immunization Practices [ACIP] advises against non-emergency use of smallpox > vaccine in anyone under 18 years of age.) These people should not receive > the vaccine unless they have been exposed to smallpox.

What still bothers me with the steroid portion of the above statement is that it is way to broad. Do they include inhaled steroids, someone on a prednisone burst, just people on a long term steroid treatment. Also, skin conditions aside, what exactly is the risk here? The vaccine doesn’t work or the person contracts the illness? Hopefully the FDA or CDC will come up with some more specific guidelines. My personal concern is the fact that I’ve been on three prednisone bursts in the last four months… What group of "steroid" category does this put me into? Anyway,  I’m not flaming or complaining to anyone here, I’m just grumbling about the inadequate information we have been given so far from the CDC and/or the FDA. Unless they want the hospitals flooded by however many millions of asthmatics there are at present with Smallpox (in the event of an attack), they (the powers that be), need to get a lot more specific with these warnings. Dan Rhea "Loyalty is for family, friends and country, not operating systems, compilers and computers"   – Dan Rhea, 1986

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>What still bothers me with the steroid portion of the above >statement is that it is way to broad. Do they include inhaled >steroids, someone on a prednisone burst, just people on a long term >steroid treatment.

Here are some more precise guidelines: "Replication of vaccinia virus can be enhanced among persons with immunodeficiency diseases and among those with immunosuppression (e.g., as occurs with leukemia, lymphoma, generalized malignancy, solid organ transplantation, cellular or humoral immunity disorders, or therapy with alkylating agents, antimetabolites, radiation, or high-dose corticosteroid therapy [i.e., >2 mg/kg body weight or 20 mg/day of prednisone for >2 weeks] [66])." http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5010a1.htm — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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> Basically, there is a chance that people on inhaled steroids may not > develop an immunity to smallpox on the first vaccination.  This is > real easy to spot as if you do not develop the characteristic pustule > and subsequent scar – you are likely to need another shot. > A nuisance perhaps – but not a danger.

Colin, I’m a bit confused here. I cannot get (and never have had) a smallpox vaccination because I have eczema. There is a nasty condition called eczema vaccinatum that I’m vulnerable to because of that. It’s my impression that the article was saying that smallpox vaccination could be contraindicated for those using steroids. That is, steroids lower the immunity enough that anyone getting a smallpox vaccination while using steroids could also be vulnerable to eczema vaccinatum, not because the vaccine might not be effective against preventing smallpox. (In the same way, those with compromised immune systems are advised against getting smallpox vaccinations.) Joan

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I emailed the cdc and this is the response I got.  UM MOM Susan Thank your for your inquiry. This is in response to your email to the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research (CBER) regarding the smallpox vaccine. CBER, one of six centers within FDA, is responsible for the regulation of biologically-derived products, including blood intended for transfusion, blood components and derivatives, vaccines and allergenic extracts. These links will provide additional information to answer any additional questions you may have: http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/index.asp http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/smallpox/overview/faq.asp Having said that, Crohn’s disease should not specifically preclude you from being immunized. Who should NOT get the vaccine? People who should not get the vaccine include anyone who is allergic to the vaccine or any of its components; pregnant women; women who are breastfeeding; anyone under 12 months of age; people who have, or have had, skin conditions (especially eczema and atopic dermatitis); and people with weakened immune systems, such as those who have received a transplant, are HIV positive, are receiving treatment for cancer, or are taking medications (like steroids) that suppress the immune system. (The Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices [ACIP] advises against non-emergency use of smallpox vaccine in anyone under 18 years of age.) These people should not receive the vaccine unless they have been exposed to smallpox. Adrienne Hornatko-Munoz Consumer Safety Officer FDA/CBER Office of Communication, Training & Manufacturers Assistance phone 301-827-2000 fax 301-827-3843

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>Colin, I’m a bit confused here. I cannot get (and never have had) a >smallpox vaccination because I have eczema. There is a nasty condition >called eczema vaccinatum that I’m vulnerable to because of that.

Then you are one of the people who should not get the shot – and must depend on the rest of us getting ours. >It’s my impression that the article was saying that smallpox vaccination >could be contraindicated for those using steroids. That is, steroids >lower the immunity enough that anyone getting a smallpox vaccination >while using steroids could also be vulnerable to eczema vaccinatum, not >because the vaccine might not be effective against preventing smallpox. >(In the same way, those with compromised immune systems are advised >against getting smallpox vaccinations.)

Inhaled steroids are not the issue here.  Long term oral steroids are. There are several groups of people who will not be able to get the shot.  The only way to protect them is through ‘herd immunity’ (having enough people get the shot that every unimmunized person is surrounded by immunized people). — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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> The only way to protect them is through ‘herd immunity’ (having >enough people get the shot that every unimmunized person is surrounded >by immunized people).

This mass immunization philosophy will probably not help much in the current situation, as exposure will come from "unnatural means", weaponized airborne delivery or less likely, through human vector. By the time a terrorist vector becomes infectious, they are in bed, too sick to walk around airports, malls, etc., with obvious and hideous lesions about their mouth and face. The way to best protect us in this situation will be through quarantine of those who are found to be infected.  Those people will be vaccinated at that time, along with those with whom they have come in contact.  We don’t even know yet if the available vaccine is protein-specific for a possibly genetically altered virus. Beefing up one’s immune system is a prudent preventive approach for everyone, including those who cannot have the vaccine.  Eat clean, wholesome foods, load up on anti-oxidants if you are so inclined, exercise, drink clean water and get lots of rest.   And pray that our armed services continue to interdict the terrorists, as they have been doing, splendedly and thankfully.

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>> The only way to protect them is through ‘herd immunity’ (having >enough people get the shot that every unimmunized person is surrounded >by immunized people).

There is also the possibility of being infected by coming in contact with infected clothing and bedding, or a terrorist who is wearing an infected person’s clothing.  Droplet saliva and the pustules/scabs contain virus.

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>> The only way to protect them is through ‘herd immunity’ (having >enough people get the shot that every unimmunized person is surrounded >by immunized people). >This mass immunization philosophy will probably not help much in the >current situation, as exposure will come from "unnatural means", >weaponized airborne delivery or less likely, through human vector. By >the time a terrorist vector becomes infectious, they are in bed, too >sick to walk around airports, malls, etc., with obvious and hideous >lesions about their mouth and face.

Actually the best value of a mass vaccination campaign is that it deters an attack in the first place.  (What good does loosing smallpox on people who are immune do?) Besides, I am of the firm belief that it is better to take preventative measures before an event than to react to the event.  You always have to take ‘Murphy’s Law’ into account.  Besides, the more people vaccinated before an attack mean that fewer people will have to be vaccinated after an attack. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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>>> The only way to protect them is through ‘herd immunity’ (having >>enough people get the shot that every unimmunized person is surrounded >>by immunized people). >There is also the possibility of being infected by coming in contact >with infected clothing and bedding, or a terrorist who is wearing an >infected person’s clothing.  Droplet saliva and the pustules/scabs >contain virus.

But there is a very limited number of people he can get in this manner.  Without enough susceptible hosts the disease will not be able to spread. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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>The CDC has stated that even steroid inhalers (not just oral steroids) >may be a contraindication for the smallpox vaccine:

Meanwhile, anyone with active eczema should avoid smallpox vaccinations–period.  Eczema vaccinatium (sp?) ain’t pretty. jrw

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I’m not surprised. Steroid inhalers are not without serious risks. For example, they may cause diabetes. — Marty

> The CDC has stated that even steroid inhalers (not just oral steroids) > may be a contraindication for the smallpox vaccine: > "….Consult an expert allergist/immunologist or the CDC. Requires > individualized decisions as the absorption varies both with the steroid > used and the dosage and frequency of administration."

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/training/smallpoxvaccine/reactions/contraindica… tml – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This may be a real problem, since it’s possible to get systemic > absorption from an inhaled steroid and not yet know it–until you’re > administered the smallpox vaccine. > — > Steven D. Litvintchouk

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>I’m not surprised. Steroid inhalers are not without serious risks. For >example, they may cause diabetes.

Just like alternative medicine ‘may cause diabeties.’ Basically, there is a chance that people on inhaled steroids may not develop an immunity to smallpox on the first vaccination.  This is real easy to spot as if you do not develop the characteristic pustule and subsequent scar – you are likely to need another shot. A nuisance perhaps – but not a danger. — "What Sept. 11 did was remind us that there are times when we must fight for our country, that, indeed, there are things – our liberty, our democracy, our belief in human rights and human dignity – worth fighting for." Newsday.com editorial – 27 May 2002

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The CDC has stated that even steroid inhalers (not just oral steroids) may be a contraindication for the smallpox vaccine: "….Consult an expert allergist/immunologist or the CDC. Requires individualized decisions as the absorption varies both with the steroid used and the dosage and frequency of administration." http://www.bt.cdc.gov/training/smallpoxvaccine/reactions/contraindica… This may be a real problem, since it’s possible to get systemic absorption from an inhaled steroid and not yet know it–until you’re administered the smallpox vaccine. — Steven D. Litvintchouk                  

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>The CDC has stated that even steroid inhalers (not just oral steroids) >may be a contraindication for the smallpox vaccine: >"….Consult an expert allergist/immunologist or the CDC. Requires >individualized decisions as the absorption varies both with the steroid >used and the dosage and frequency of administration." >http://www.bt.cdc.gov/training/smallpoxvaccine/reactions/contraindica… >This may be a real problem, since it’s possible to get systemic >absorption from an inhaled steroid and not yet know it–until you’re >administered the smallpox vaccine.

According to the CDC website: "Equivalent to 2 mgm/kg or greater of prednisone daily, or 20 mgm/day, particularly if given for longer than 14 days." And there is a very good way of checking to see if the vaccine ‘takes’ – if the vaccination works it will leave a small scar.  (And if you are still not sure – do what the Army does and give the immunization again.) — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

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Hi My doc has prescribed this (Levorphanol)along with Percocet as breakthrough to go with my Duragesic patch. Anybody else take this stuff or know anything about it? I’d never even heard of it before today…. Thanks mucho in advance… -kk

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>Hi >My doc has prescribed this (Levorphanol)along with Percocet as >breakthrough to go with my Duragesic patch. Anybody else take this stuff >or know anything about it? I’d never even heard of it before today…. >Thanks mucho in advance… >-kk

Found this on RxList on this drug.  Very long, but pasted it for your review. Hope it contains info helpful for you.  The URL for RXList is: http://www.rxlist.com levorphanol Pronunciation: lee VOR fa nole Brand: Levo-Dromoran What is the most important information I should know about levorphanol?  

I just wanted to share this with members of this group.  I realize some readers may not agree with my view.  That’s okay and I welcome feedback. I wonder if anyone else has had any positive experiences. As an Asthmatic child in 1980 I could not play the sports other kids were playing so my father bought me a computer.  I learned a lot about computers and they became a lifelong interest.  When I was older I experimented with Marijuana and got high on a regular basis.  I had no direction in my life, everything centered around getting high.  Then my Asthma worsened to the point that I could not function.  This was what caused me to stop smoking.  I turned to drinking and had the same experience. Once I could no longer take drugs or drink alcohol my life began to take direction. I resumed using my computer and got a job with this experience.  I excelled at work and went from making $20,000 to making over $100,000 working for a bank in New York. My Asthma improved but never went away.  My fears of getting older and having asthma and my early experiences of working for companies that were sold and having to transfer and count myself lucky if I still had a job scared me and forced me to find a way to take control of how I made money.  I left my job at the bank and started a tech support and computer networking business three years ago.  At this point in my life I am making a salary that is less but very close to the salary I made at the bank. Some of my friends and many other people I know of have lost their jobs and are looking for work, while my business and income continue to grow.  I feel very lucky, but I also know that the paths I would have taken if I had not had Asthma would be very different.  I was not one to strive, being put in accelerated learning classes twice as a child, I should have been skipped to higher grades twice and graduated two years early.  I played hooky and ended up with a GED and no college education. If given the choice, I would not have this disease or wish it upon anyone, but I don’t think that choice is mine to make.  I take my meds regularly and educate myself in prevention, diet, and exercise.  I am still an Asthmatic and I still suffer, but I know that I might have been worse off if I did not have this disease.

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Interesting viewpoint. The older and wiser (heh) I get, the more I subscribe to the concept that everything happens for a reason… everything is as it needs to be. Of course it would be hard for me to say that if my athsma was much more debilitating. My experience is that I have done lots of work to manage the disease. Meds work fairly well, but that is not good enough. They do not treat the underlying disease, which in the case of athsma, is extremely complex and varies from individual to individual. So I started to make all kinds of changes in my life: attitude, spirituality, diet (a big one and a tough one), exercise (yoga!) and have found that although my attacks are as bad as ever, I don’t need as much medication to manage the disease. And I have all these other side benefits that I may not have had without the impetous to do something about the athsma.

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>If given the choice, I would not have this disease or wish it upon >anyone, but I don’t think that choice is mine to make.  I take my meds >regularly and educate myself in prevention, diet, and exercise.  I am >still an Asthmatic and I still suffer, but I know that I might have >been worse off if I did not have this disease.

I had undiagnosed asthma as a child as was unable to do many of the things the ordinary children were able to do. My asthma went into remission in my late teens and in adulthood I found myself doing things that ordinary people either cannot or will not do.  As a result I have seen things and done things that can only be described as extraordinary.  I have helped liberate a nation.  I have assisted the victims of earthquake, fire and flood.  I have mentored a young ’street punk’ whose father was in prison and several years later was sent a picture of his graduation – from West Point. Asthma and all – I would not trade my life and my experiences for anything. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

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… and my asthma caused my father to give-up smoking, because our Family Doctor told him that he would be damaging my heath if he continued. He used to smoke about a half an ounce a day. A few years ago,  he joined all old friends and comrades (in-arms) in the grave-yard. They were all younger men – who died almost exclusively of emphysema an/or lung cancer. My father just died because he got old. The day before his 89th birthday. Wouldn’t trade a single gasp

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If given the choice, I would not have this disease or wish it upon >anyone, but I don’t think that choice is mine to make.  I take my meds >regularly and educate myself in prevention, diet, and exercise.  I am >still an Asthmatic and I still suffer, but I know that I might have >been worse off if I did not have this disease. > I had undiagnosed asthma as a child as was unable to do many of the > things the ordinary children were able to do. > My asthma went into remission in my late teens and in adulthood I > found myself doing things that ordinary people either cannot or will > not do.  As a result I have seen things and done things that can only > be described as extraordinary.  I have helped liberate a nation.  I > have assisted the victims of earthquake, fire and flood.  I have > mentored a young ’street punk’ whose father was in prison and several > years later was sent a picture of his graduation – from West Point. > Asthma and all – I would not trade my life and my experiences for > anything.

spot on as a child I had some crippling asthma attacks as well as huge problems with eczema…then I got given my first Alupent and was able to beat most asthma attacks in minutes…I was able to seriously take part in sports (not all that well except for swimming and tennis, but what the hell)…and I started singing, which for a while was my career because I’d grown up not being able to take some basic things for granted (I think we’d all agree breathing is fairly basic), I have, perhaps, been willing to take risks other people haven’t…it’s meant I’ve done some things that seem amazing when I look back on them…and it means I can still look at something everyone around is despairing of, and if not always successfully, at least have a go at sorting it out I’m pleased to be who I am…and asthma is one of the things that made me who I am — eric www.ericjarvis.co.uk "I am a man of many parts, unfortunately most of them are no longer in stock"

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I grew up in Brooklyn with asthma during the 60’s and early 70’s, I have friends who have died from drugs an dalcohol, I didn’t do them beacuse when I trieds to smoke pot it made me cough, don’t smoke for the same reason, can’t drink much because of the fluids that build up in my lungs. Still have asthma, lovely wife, 4 children, 3 grand children, I am a Tai Chi instuctiorn, won 2 National Championships. I believe if I didn’t have asthma I would be with my friends in the grave yard. It is not wht you do, but how well you do it. Bruce Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just wanted to share this with members of this group.  I realize > some readers may not agree with my view.  That’s okay and I welcome > feedback. I wonder if anyone else has had any positive experiences. > As an Asthmatic child in 1980 I could not play the sports other kids > were playing so my father bought me a computer.  I learned a lot about > computers and they became a lifelong interest.  When I was older I > experimented with Marijuana and got high on a regular basis.  I had no > direction in my life, everything centered around getting high.  Then > my Asthma worsened to the point that I could not function.  This was > what caused me to stop smoking.  I turned to drinking and had the same > experience. Once I could no longer take drugs or drink alcohol my life > began to take direction. I resumed using my computer and got a job > with this experience.  I excelled at work and went from making $20,000 > to making over $100,000 working for a bank in New York. My Asthma > improved but never went away.  My fears of getting older and having > asthma and my early experiences of working for companies that were > sold and having to transfer and count myself lucky if I still had a > job scared me and forced me to find a way to take control of how I > made money.  I left my job at the bank and > started a tech support and computer networking business three years > ago.  At this point in my life I am making a salary that is less but > very close to the salary I made at the bank. Some of my friends and > many other people I know of have lost their jobs and are looking for > work, while my business and income continue to grow.  I feel very > lucky, but I also know that the paths I would > have taken if I had not had Asthma would be very different.  I was not > one to strive, being put in accelerated learning classes twice as a > child, I should have been skipped to higher grades twice and graduated > two years early.  I played hooky and ended up with a GED and no > college education. > If given the choice, I would not have this disease or wish it upon > anyone, but I don’t think that choice is mine to make.  I take my meds > regularly and educate myself in prevention, diet, and exercise.  I am > still an Asthmatic and I still suffer, but I know that I might have > been worse off if I did not have this disease.

Response:

This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for us when we finally do get our act together. http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn

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I belive this is a vast cloud of smog wafting over asia. It illustrates why it is folly to exempt China and developing countries from the Kyoto protocalls. Bushie, bless his little heart, opted the US out of the Kyoto agreement probably for selfish corporate reasons, but at some point we all will have to join. It’s very important that the developing world, China, India, Brazil and the third world countries adopt some controls as well. Obviously we are all in this together and certain countries should not be given a pass and allowed to polute just because they are poor and under developed. Dr. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > us when we finally do get our act together. > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn

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> This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > us when we finally do get our act together. > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn

That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install more insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and cities, or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All simple stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > us when we finally do get our act together. > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install more > insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and cities, > or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All simple > stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect.

You’ve got my vote! Don W.

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> I belive this is a vast cloud of smog wafting over asia. It illustrates > why it is folly to exempt China and developing countries from the Kyoto > protocalls.

Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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> That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel;

Ever been to China? Most of that stuff is from burning locally mined COAL. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany — "it’s the network…"                          "The Journey is the reward" Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com 9-11   United we Stand

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> That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; > Ever been to China? Most of that stuff > is from burning locally mined COAL.

Which is a filthy fossil fuel.

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They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. Dr. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > — > Tumbleweed > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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> > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; > Ever been to China? Most of that stuff is from burning locally mined COAL.

Thank you for pointing that out. What many younger readers fail to relize is the the gross levels of pollution existing in many parts of Asia, including the Indian Subcontinent, were terrible even before the industrial age. Primitive practices die hard.  As early as the middle 1800s it was said that you could navigate to India using your nose alone from as far at sea as 100-Nautical Miles. I find it comforting to realize that the very least polluted parts of the world today are generally the most industrialized, simply because modern technology at least attempts to deal with the problem.                                                          Harry C.

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> > > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution >  at > > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in >  vehicles > > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; > Ever been to China? Most of that stuff > is from burning locally mined COAL. > Which is a filthy fossil fuel.

Rumor has it that those parts of the world also use large quantities of both charcoal and coke, which while relatively clean burning on their own, and each incredibly filthy (with respect to air pollution) to produce (except when produced using high-tech systems, which are generally cost prohibitive to employ in 3rd World nations. Then too, consider what industries employ the largest quantities of coke, and the terrible air pollution they generally produce! Then too, China has worked long an hard to dominate world market for iron and steel, plus heavy industry.  This has its price. Ever been to Pittsburgh?  It’s a really nice place to visit, now that you can breathe there again. (If you do find yourself there, by all means visit the Allegheny Brewery. This is a great German restaurant with a micro-brewery that produces the best beer I have ever tasted — Something they call "Allegheny Dark Pilsner". This beer is so good that you’ll remember it long after you have forgotten anything else about Pittsburgh! ‘Nuff said, and they don’t bottle it, although they do bottle "Sam Adams.")                                                       Harry C.

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Reduce the amount of methane burned in large scale power systems. Since these sets of products are not related except within a certain type of application, any change in the applications mix could have this effect. Consider reducing the coal burning power plants total fuel consumed. This results in brown outs. When folk really need the power they will run their diesel generators producing less total power and a little less CO2, but much higher emissions of smoke, SO2, etc. Forcing highly efficient and relatively clean plants in high tech locations to reduce CO2 can result in shifting demand to low tech plants that produce more pollution while reducing only marginally the CO2 totals. I thought that, apart from the steel industry, much of the smoke found in the Asian countries was from forest and crop land burning? True, or not?

> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > — > Tumbleweed > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to

newsgroups)

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> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob

Yes, there are many. Besides which, you are confusing two things, what the process for producing energy outputs in the way of CO2 and smog, and how much energy we produce in total. I could switch to a different process (or fuel) that resulted in less CO2 and smog, but increase the use of it, so that CO2 was higher overall, and smog still lower overall, compared to previously. This has happened in the West over the past 50 years for example. Which is why we produce more CO2 and less smog. But its perfectly possibly to produce the same amount (or maybe more) CO2, and less smog. You may even consume more energy (thus producing more CO2) to extract the particulates. Depends how you do it. — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > > us when we finally do get our act together. > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution > at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install > more > insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and cities, > or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All simple > stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect. > You’ve got my vote!

As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water.  50,000 people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst its banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, global warming is not just playing golf in January.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > > > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > > > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > > > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > > > us when we finally do get our act together. > > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn > > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution > at > > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in >vehicles > > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install > more > > insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and >cities, > > or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All >simple > > stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect. > You’ve got my vote! >As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water.  50,000 >people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst its >banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, >global warming is not just playing golf in January.

Of course every weather anomaly from now on is certainly the work of global warming. Riiiiggghhhtttt… Dave Head

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> You’ve got my vote! > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water. 50,000 > people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst its > banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > global warming is not just playing golf in January.

Indeed, these are the worst floods for 100 years. So according to your logic, global warming was worse 100 years ago since the floods were worse then? — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You’ve got my vote! > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water. > 50,000 > people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst > its > banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > global warming is not just playing golf in January. > Indeed, these are the worst floods for > 100 years. So according to your > logic, global warming was worse 100 > years ago since the floods were worse > then?

I’m, not sure if Prague has ever been flooded.  Many places had floods 100s of years ago for sure.  Since those floods, flood plains and other measures have been built that stopped the flooding.  The rain is so torrential is saturates these measures.  In short, the rain is worse than 100s of years ago.

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> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > — > Tumbleweed > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

IIRC, in London they had tremendous smog problems which would kill thousands when the weather was wrong. They switched to coke, which greatly reduced the problem.  This reduces smog without reducing CO2, which would be much more expensive.  Even if the only pollution control on the coke plant was a tall smokestack downwind from the city, it would be much better than burning coal in people’s kitchen ovens, like they do in China. — When you work, you create. When you win, you just take from the loser. For an explanation, see http://paulstudier.com/win

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I think the flooding in the Czech Republic is more related to development and construction, than global warming. Each building, each parking lot, and every road, prevent ground absorption. When the 100 year rain comes, and you no longer have the 100 year watershed. The water has to go somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > You’ve got my vote! > > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water. > 50,000 > > people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst > its > > banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > > global warming is not just playing golf in January. > Indeed, these are the worst floods for > 100 years. So according to your > logic, global warming was worse 100 > years ago since the floods were worse > then? > I’m, not sure if Prague has ever been flooded.  Many places had floods 100s > of years ago for sure.  Since those floods, flood plains and other measures > have been built that stopped the flooding.  The rain is so torrential is > saturates these measures.  In short, the rain is worse than 100s of years > ago.

– —-   John B. Bahm, Network Specialist   IBM Houston  My views in no way reflect the views of my Company

Response:

Uh Huh, and how do they make coke? A tall smoke stack just puts the polution higher into the air so it will waft to Europe. The real thing that cleaned up London and surrounds was North Sea natural gas not coke. Also, steel making has largely left Europe and the US for that matter and now resides, guess where?, in China. Dr. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob > > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > > — > > Tumbleweed > > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to > newsgroups) > IIRC, in London they had tremendous smog problems > which would kill thousands when the weather was wrong. > They switched to coke, which greatly reduced the > problem.  This reduces smog without reducing CO2, > which would be much more expensive.  Even if the > only pollution control on the coke plant was a tall > smokestack downwind from the city, it would be > much better than burning coal in people’s kitchen > ovens, like they do in China. > — > When you work, you create. > When you win, you just take from the loser. > For an explanation, see http://paulstudier.com/win

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech > > > Republic are under water. 50,000 > > > people in Prague are being evacuated > > > as the Danube is expected to burst > > > its banks and destroy some of the > > > finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > > > global warming is not just playing > > > golf in January. > > Indeed, these are the worst floods for > > 100 years. So according to your > > logic, global warming was worse 100 > > years ago since the floods were worse > > then? > I’m, not sure if Prague has ever been flooded. > Many places had floods 100s of years ago > for sure.  Since those floods, flood plains > and other measures have been built that > stopped the flooding.  The rain is so torrential is > saturates these measures.  In short, the > rain is worse than 100s of years ago. > I think the flooding in the Czech Republic > is more related to development and > construction, than global warming. Each > building, each parking lot, and every road, prevent > ground absorption. When the 100 year rain > comes, and you no longer have the > 100 year watershed. The water has to > go somewhere.

< moved text down here where it should be > Watersheds have been built-in over the years.  Houses and roads take little area in total – fly over a supposedly densely populated region and look down.  Fly over London and the green below is phenomenal.  In the UK with a population of over 60 million and an area of 60 million acres, only 7.5% of the land is actually built on including gardens. Claims of "concreting over the countryside" and "urban sprawl" are baseless when environmental aspects are viewed.

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> Uh Huh, and how do they make coke? > A tall smoke stack just puts the > polution higher into the air so it will > waft to Europe. The real thing > that cleaned up London and surrounds > was North Sea natural gas

That make a big impact. > not coke.

The clean air acts came in, in the late 1940s early 1950s.  A 1950 London smog killed 1000s.  Smog is a mixture of SMoke and fOG, not car fumes.  I experienced one SMOG as a kid.  Not a nice experience as breathing was difficult, and you could not see your hand at the end of your arm.  People would walk around with WW2 gas masks on, or make shift linen masks over their faces.  Attempting to walk at night in a SMOG was suicidal. The UK led the world in air clean ups and cleaner fuels had to be used, including gas.  Many of the houses built to replace Victorian slums and WW2 bombings had gas warm air heating; the first mass take up system in central heating in the UK. Locally burning coke, or types of coals that emitted less smoke, assisted in cleaning up the cities, yet the overall pollution was the same.  The coke was an interim measure as town gas was already being taken up en-mass, with the by-product of town gas being coke for those still burning solid fuels. North Sea gas just made it that much cleaner all around and new emission standards are cleaning up the emissions on that too.  More efficient boiler as condensing boilers are also contributing as less gas is used, so less emissions.

Response:

>> You’ve got my vote! >As I write parts of Austria and the Czech >Republic are under water.  50,000 >people in Prague are being evacuated >as the Danube is expected to burst its >banks and destroy some of the finest >Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, >global warming is not just playing >golf in January. > Of course every weather anomaly from now on is certainly the work of > global warming. > Riiiiggghhhtttt…

No. It is the persistent sharp swings in weather patterns (lots of rain, too cold, too hot, too windy, etc) which is the result of global warming. The result in the UK is not getting very hot summers.  It is wonderful today, however the UK summer has been abysmal overall; temperatures are increasing that is for sure.  In the UK wind speeds are increasing at an alarming rate.  The government is taking no notice and not uprating the building regs to ensure new homes and extensions are hurricane proof.  We had a hurricane in the south east of England in 1987.  Millions of tress were downed.  The town of Seven Oaks in Kent is now only "Three Oaks", 4 of them were blown down after 1000 years. BTW, Dresden in Germany is flooded.

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> Watersheds have been built-in over the years.  Houses and roads take little > area in total – fly over a supposedly densely populated region and look > down.  Fly over London and the green below is phenomenal.  In the UK with a > population of over 60 million and an area of 60 million acres, only 7.5% of > the land is actually built on including gardens.

Just green isn’t good enough. The runoff increases 5-10x soon after a climax forest is cut down, even when new trees are allowed to grow. Apparently due to loss of equilibrium of dead tree roots and animal burrows. > Claims of "concreting over the countryside" and "urban sprawl" are baseless > when environmental aspects are viewed.

Studies I’ve seen suggest around half a climax hectare is lost per house, even where no concrete is involved.

Response:

> I think the flooding in the Czech Republic is more related to development and > construction, > than global warming. Each building, each parking lot, and every road, prevent > ground absorption. > When the 100 year rain comes, and you no longer have the 100 year watershed. > The water has to go somewhere.

Not to mention rivers turned into canals which channels water faster, numerous buildings whose rain water outfall rushes directly into waterways instead of via trees and the soil, etc. This may well be the worst floods ever in that part of the world, but to my info its not the worst rain ever. — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

Response:

> Watersheds have been built-in over the years.  Houses and roads take little > area in total – fly over a supposedly densely populated region and look > down.  Fly over London and the green below is phenomenal.  In the UK with a > population of over 60 million and an area of 60 million acres, only 7.5% of > the land is actually built on including gardens. > Just green isn’t good enough. The runoff increases >  5-10x soon after a climax forest is cut down,

In areas where is little forest anyway, the impact must be minimal.

Response:

>> You’ve got my vote! >As I write parts of Austria and the Czech >Republic are under water.  50,000 >people in Prague are being evacuated >as the Danube is expected to burst its >banks and destroy some of the finest >Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, >global warming is not just playing >golf in January. > Of course every weather anomaly from now on is certainly the work of > global warming. > Riiiiggghhhtttt…

No. It is the persistent sharp swings in weather patterns (lots of rain, too cold, too hot, too windy, etc) which is the result of global warming. The result in the UK is not getting very hot summers.  It is wonderful today, however the UK summer has been abysmal overall; temperatures are increasing that is for sure.  In the UK wind speeds are increasing at an alarming rate.  The government is taking no notice and not uprating the building regs to ensure new homes and extensions are hurricane proof.  We had a hurricane in the south east of England in 1987.  Millions of tress were downed.  The town of Seven Oaks in Kent is now only "Three Oaks", 4 of them were blown down after 1000 years. BTW, Dresden in Germany is flooded.

Response:

> Watersheds have been built-in over the years.  Houses and roads take little > area in total – fly over a supposedly densely populated region and look > down.  Fly over London and the green below is phenomenal.  In the UK with a > population of over 60 million and an area of 60 million acres, only 7.5% of > the land is actually built on including gardens.

Just green isn’t good enough. The runoff increases 5-10x soon after a climax forest is cut down, even when new trees are allowed to grow. Apparently due to loss of equilibrium of dead tree roots and animal burrows. > Claims of "concreting over the countryside" and "urban sprawl" are baseless > when environmental aspects are viewed.

Studies I’ve seen suggest around half a climax hectare is lost per house, even where no concrete is involved.

Response:

> I think the flooding in the Czech Republic is more related to development and > construction, > than global warming. Each building, each parking lot, and every road, prevent > ground absorption. > When the 100 year rain comes, and you no longer have the 100 year watershed. > The water has to go somewhere.

Not to mention rivers turned into canals which channels water faster, numerous buildings whose rain water outfall rushes directly into waterways instead of via trees and the soil, etc. This may well be the worst floods ever in that part of the world, but to my info its not the worst rain ever. — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

Response:

> Watersheds have been built-in over the years.  Houses and roads take little > area in total – fly over a supposedly densely populated region and look > down.  Fly over London and the green below is phenomenal.  In the UK with a > population of over 60 million and an area of 60 million acres, only 7.5% of > the land is actually built on including gardens. > Just green isn’t good enough. The runoff increases >  5-10x soon after a climax forest is cut down,

In areas where is little forest anyway, the impact must be minimal.

Response:

> Uh Huh, and how do they make coke? > A tall smoke stack just puts the > polution higher into the air so it will > waft to Europe. The real thing > that cleaned up London and surrounds > was North Sea natural gas

That make a big impact. > not coke.

The clean air acts came in, in the late 1940s early 1950s.  A 1950 London smog killed 1000s.  Smog is a mixture of SMoke and fOG, not car fumes.  I experienced one SMOG as a kid.  Not a nice experience as breathing was difficult, and you could not see your hand at the end of your arm.  People would walk around with WW2 gas masks on, or make shift linen masks over their faces.  Attempting to walk at night in a SMOG was suicidal. The UK led the world in air clean ups and cleaner fuels had to be used, including gas.  Many of the houses built to replace Victorian slums and WW2 bombings had gas warm air heating; the first mass take up system in central heating in the UK. Locally burning coke, or types of coals that emitted less smoke, assisted in cleaning up the cities, yet the overall pollution was the same.  The coke was an interim measure as town gas was already being taken up en-mass, with the by-product of town gas being coke for those still burning solid fuels. North Sea gas just made it that much cleaner all around and new emission standards are cleaning up the emissions on that too.  More efficient boiler as condensing boilers are also contributing as less gas is used, so less emissions.

Response:

I think the flooding in the Czech Republic is more related to development and construction, than global warming. Each building, each parking lot, and every road, prevent ground absorption. When the 100 year rain comes, and you no longer have the 100 year watershed. The water has to go somewhere. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > You’ve got my vote! > > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water. > 50,000 > > people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst > its > > banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > > global warming is not just playing golf in January. > Indeed, these are the worst floods for > 100 years. So according to your > logic, global warming was worse 100 > years ago since the floods were worse > then? > I’m, not sure if Prague has ever been flooded.  Many places had floods 100s > of years ago for sure.  Since those floods, flood plains and other measures > have been built that stopped the flooding.  The rain is so torrential is > saturates these measures.  In short, the rain is worse than 100s of years > ago.

– —-   John B. Bahm, Network Specialist   IBM Houston  My views in no way reflect the views of my Company

Response:

Uh Huh, and how do they make coke? A tall smoke stack just puts the polution higher into the air so it will waft to Europe. The real thing that cleaned up London and surrounds was North Sea natural gas not coke. Also, steel making has largely left Europe and the US for that matter and now resides, guess where?, in China. Dr. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob > > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > > — > > Tumbleweed > > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to > newsgroups) > IIRC, in London they had tremendous smog problems > which would kill thousands when the weather was wrong. > They switched to coke, which greatly reduced the > problem.  This reduces smog without reducing CO2, > which would be much more expensive.  Even if the > only pollution control on the coke plant was a tall > smokestack downwind from the city, it would be > much better than burning coal in people’s kitchen > ovens, like they do in China. > — > When you work, you create. > When you win, you just take from the loser. > For an explanation, see http://paulstudier.com/win

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech > > > Republic are under water. 50,000 > > > people in Prague are being evacuated > > > as the Danube is expected to burst > > > its banks and destroy some of the > > > finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > > > global warming is not just playing > > > golf in January. > > Indeed, these are the worst floods for > > 100 years. So according to your > > logic, global warming was worse 100 > > years ago since the floods were worse > > then? > I’m, not sure if Prague has ever been flooded. > Many places had floods 100s of years ago > for sure.  Since those floods, flood plains > and other measures have been built that > stopped the flooding.  The rain is so torrential is > saturates these measures.  In short, the > rain is worse than 100s of years ago. > I think the flooding in the Czech Republic > is more related to development and > construction, than global warming. Each > building, each parking lot, and every road, prevent > ground absorption. When the 100 year rain > comes, and you no longer have the > 100 year watershed. The water has to > go somewhere.

< moved text down here where it should be > Watersheds have been built-in over the years.  Houses and roads take little area in total – fly over a supposedly densely populated region and look down.  Fly over London and the green below is phenomenal.  In the UK with a population of over 60 million and an area of 60 million acres, only 7.5% of the land is actually built on including gardens. Claims of "concreting over the countryside" and "urban sprawl" are baseless when environmental aspects are viewed.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > > us when we finally do get our act together. > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution > at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install > more > insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and cities, > or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All simple > stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect. > You’ve got my vote!

As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water.  50,000 people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst its banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, global warming is not just playing golf in January.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > > > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > > > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > > > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > > > us when we finally do get our act together. > > > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn > > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution > at > > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in >vehicles > > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install > more > > insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and >cities, > > or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All >simple > > stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect. > You’ve got my vote! >As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water.  50,000 >people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst its >banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, >global warming is not just playing golf in January.

Of course every weather anomaly from now on is certainly the work of global warming. Riiiiggghhhtttt… Dave Head

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> You’ve got my vote! > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water. 50,000 > people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst its > banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > global warming is not just playing golf in January.

Indeed, these are the worst floods for 100 years. So according to your logic, global warming was worse 100 years ago since the floods were worse then? — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > You’ve got my vote! > As I write parts of Austria and the Czech Republic are under water. > 50,000 > people in Prague are being evacuated as the Danube is expected to burst > its > banks and destroy some of the finest Medieval buildings in Europe.  So, > global warming is not just playing golf in January. > Indeed, these are the worst floods for > 100 years. So according to your > logic, global warming was worse 100 > years ago since the floods were worse > then?

I’m, not sure if Prague has ever been flooded.  Many places had floods 100s of years ago for sure.  Since those floods, flood plains and other measures have been built that stopped the flooding.  The rain is so torrential is saturates these measures.  In short, the rain is worse than 100s of years ago.

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> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > — > Tumbleweed > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

IIRC, in London they had tremendous smog problems which would kill thousands when the weather was wrong. They switched to coke, which greatly reduced the problem.  This reduces smog without reducing CO2, which would be much more expensive.  Even if the only pollution control on the coke plant was a tall smokestack downwind from the city, it would be much better than burning coal in people’s kitchen ovens, like they do in China. — When you work, you create. When you win, you just take from the loser. For an explanation, see http://paulstudier.com/win

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Reduce the amount of methane burned in large scale power systems. Since these sets of products are not related except within a certain type of application, any change in the applications mix could have this effect. Consider reducing the coal burning power plants total fuel consumed. This results in brown outs. When folk really need the power they will run their diesel generators producing less total power and a little less CO2, but much higher emissions of smoke, SO2, etc. Forcing highly efficient and relatively clean plants in high tech locations to reduce CO2 can result in shifting demand to low tech plants that produce more pollution while reducing only marginally the CO2 totals. I thought that, apart from the steel industry, much of the smoke found in the Asian countries was from forest and crop land burning? True, or not?

> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > — > Tumbleweed > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to

newsgroups)

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> They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 > but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. > Dr. Bob

Yes, there are many. Besides which, you are confusing two things, what the process for producing energy outputs in the way of CO2 and smog, and how much energy we produce in total. I could switch to a different process (or fuel) that resulted in less CO2 and smog, but increase the use of it, so that CO2 was higher overall, and smog still lower overall, compared to previously. This has happened in the West over the past 50 years for example. Which is why we produce more CO2 and less smog. But its perfectly possibly to produce the same amount (or maybe more) CO2, and less smog. You may even consume more energy (thus producing more CO2) to extract the particulates. Depends how you do it. — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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> > > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution >  at > > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in >  vehicles > > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; > Ever been to China? Most of that stuff > is from burning locally mined COAL. > Which is a filthy fossil fuel.

Rumor has it that those parts of the world also use large quantities of both charcoal and coke, which while relatively clean burning on their own, and each incredibly filthy (with respect to air pollution) to produce (except when produced using high-tech systems, which are generally cost prohibitive to employ in 3rd World nations. Then too, consider what industries employ the largest quantities of coke, and the terrible air pollution they generally produce! Then too, China has worked long an hard to dominate world market for iron and steel, plus heavy industry.  This has its price. Ever been to Pittsburgh?  It’s a really nice place to visit, now that you can breathe there again. (If you do find yourself there, by all means visit the Allegheny Brewery. This is a great German restaurant with a micro-brewery that produces the best beer I have ever tasted — Something they call "Allegheny Dark Pilsner". This beer is so good that you’ll remember it long after you have forgotten anything else about Pittsburgh! ‘Nuff said, and they don’t bottle it, although they do bottle "Sam Adams.")                                                       Harry C.

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They go hand in hand. Can you suggest a process that would reduce CO2 but not particulates, NOx, Ozone, CO, S02, etc. Dr. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. > — > Tumbleweed > Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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> > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; > Ever been to China? Most of that stuff is from burning locally mined COAL.

Thank you for pointing that out. What many younger readers fail to relize is the the gross levels of pollution existing in many parts of Asia, including the Indian Subcontinent, were terrible even before the industrial age. Primitive practices die hard.  As early as the middle 1800s it was said that you could navigate to India using your nose alone from as far at sea as 100-Nautical Miles. I find it comforting to realize that the very least polluted parts of the world today are generally the most industrialized, simply because modern technology at least attempts to deal with the problem.                                                          Harry C.

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> That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; > Ever been to China? Most of that stuff > is from burning locally mined COAL.

Which is a filthy fossil fuel.

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> I belive this is a vast cloud of smog wafting over asia. It illustrates > why it is folly to exempt China and developing countries from the Kyoto > protocalls.

Kyoto is about potentially marginally reducing CO2 emissions, not smog. — Tumbleweed Remove my socks before replying (but no email reply necessary to newsgroups)

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> That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel;

Ever been to China? Most of that stuff is from burning locally mined COAL. Best regards, Spehro Pefhany — "it’s the network…"                          "The Journey is the reward" Embedded software/hardware/analog  Info for designers:  http://www.speff.com 9-11   United we Stand

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > us when we finally do get our act together. > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn > That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at > local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles > by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install more > insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and cities, > or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All simple > stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect.

You’ve got my vote! Don W.

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This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for us when we finally do get our act together. http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn

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I belive this is a vast cloud of smog wafting over asia. It illustrates why it is folly to exempt China and developing countries from the Kyoto protocalls. Bushie, bless his little heart, opted the US out of the Kyoto agreement probably for selfish corporate reasons, but at some point we all will have to join. It’s very important that the developing world, China, India, Brazil and the third world countries adopt some controls as well. Obviously we are all in this together and certain countries should not be given a pass and allowed to polute just because they are poor and under developed. Dr. Bob – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > us when we finally do get our act together. > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn

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> This is an interesting article.  It’s no wonder after reading > something like this that so many of our children nowadays are on > inhalers for asthma.  This is scary stuff and even though I know many > people are working on these issues, I hope it will not be too late for > us when we finally do get our act together. > http://www.msnbc.com/news/792811.asp?pne=msn

That pollution is on a continental level.  To prevent it, stop pollution at local levels. Like stop burning dirty fossils fuels so heavily in vehicles by using cleaner compressed natural gas or LPG and bio-diesel; install more insulation in buildings to keep heat in and out.  Design towns and cities, or extensions to existing cities for people rather than cars.  All simple stuff that can be implemented quite quickly with great effect.

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This post not CC’d by email >HI Quentin… >Well that certainly sounds like me. >So are we also saying that letting the insulin do the work of >regulating our blood sugar levels isn’t good either?

G’day G’day Martin,   We need insulin to transfer glucose into many tissue cells.  There are exceptions. The brain manages to get glucose without requiring insulin.  The levels of glucose in the eye respond to the fluctuating levels in the blood.  Some nerve cells are similarly affected.   When cells become insulin resistant the levels of insulin required to put glucose into the cells requiring insulin to do the job increases. The pancreas cranks out more insulin. It is sort of like driving a car with a foot heavy on the accelerator pedal because the car is dragging a parachute behind it.  Eventually the motor overheats. > It seems that diet is the only thing that really is important.

Avoid a sedentary lifestyle is also important. > I suppose that is >the message that we have had drummed into us in the UK all our lives. >A sensible balanced diet with only a little meat and lots of veggies. >Try and get the majority of our calories from complex carbs!

That is pretty close to it.  One could emphasize the importance of fish.  The short answer is often a short fish … sardines or anchovies. >Is there a direct link between the level of obesity and insulin >resistance and high triglycerides?

I think so.   >What about the plant estols(?) such as Benecol.. do they really work?

Yes.  They work.  Some people think they shouldn’t work because the liver makes more cholesterol than is absorbed from most diets.  Since the phytosterols block the absorption of cholesterol these people reason phyotesterols should have little effect.  What they are overlooking is cholesterol is dumped by bile into the gut and it is the RE-absorption that the phytosterol prevent.  When not reabsorbed, the waste cholesterol talks to the big white telephone. For phytosterols to work efficiently they require fat.  That is the reason phytosterols are added to margarine and not say bread.  Fat improves there efficiency ten fold.   Phytosterols are naturally occurring. One of the sad historical jokes of dietary misinformation occurred when some people stopped eating avocados because the crude chemical tests available at the time found sterols in avocados and the idiot brigade thought it was cholesterol. >Is there a diet sheet that lists foods good for syndrome x sufferers?

Here are the general principles. 1. Avoid refined carbs 2. Eat foods in as natural a state as possible. 3. Use non-starchy vegetables as your primary source of carbs. 4. Keep the amounts of carb dense foods low or moderate depending on health.   5. Avoid soft drinks and fruit juices.   6. Avoid vegetable oils.      Replace them with fruit oils eg olive, avocado. 7. Avoid hydrogenated oils like the plague. The news on this got worse. It was thought that below a couple of percent of calories was OK. Some recent research suggests there is no safe limit for the common contaminant of hydrogenated oils elaidic acid, a trans fatty acid. 8. Eat fish preferably salmon, mackerel, sardines etc. They really are good for brain function.  As the details of choline, pyroglutamate, EPA, DHA, DMAE etc become clearer … the answer is a short fish. 9. Have protein at all meals.   >Thanks for the repost. >Martin.

– Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - >This post not CC'd by email >>There are researchers who are of the opinion that fructose in >>combination with fat is also unhealthy.   >So I believe. But if you don't add refined, hydrogenated, or other >fats to your diet and only eat the 25 to 30% that is unavoidable in >eating a whole food diet, and you don't eat refined flour, or refined >sugars, then you can't go wrong. Fruit (fructose) is excellent even >for diabetics. >G'day G'day Joe, >  Sometimes people give up when confronted with a barrage of commonly >held believes.  The long sentences seem to refer to refined fats and >carbs. That is the barrage. > The point we are supposed to believe is contained in the short >sentence, "Fruit (fructose) is excellent even for diabetics" >OK.  What is a refined fat?  

Fat extracted and purified from the produce in which it occurs >Is lard a refined fat?

Yep, it is concentrated from the meat eaten. >How about coconut oil?

Yep, coconut meat/milk is the way to go to get it more unrefined - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->The answers are unimportant as most readers have knee jerk response to >the word "refined"    There are IMHO many reasons to select less >processed source of fats eg if one eats whole nuts one gets the full >range of natural tocopherols ie the Vit E that works. There are also >phytosterols etc. >Even hydrogenated is not as simple as it seems.   When fully >hydrogenated the transfats disappear.  Unfortunately most of the solid >cooking compound used for deep frying still contain trans fats. >It is also hard to argue with whole food.  Most people here advocate >whole food.  Some on general principles. Some because it works. >That brings us to the >Fruit (fructose) is excellent even for diabetics. >How would YOU know?  As I understand it you are not a diabetic.

Well I listen to the research done by my daughter's diabetes clinic. And I look at the GI and carb content of many readily available fruit. How do you know? Other than perhaps extrapolating your own idiosyncratic responses onto everyone else? >The people who post here for the most part have a lot to lose by >getting things wrong.

Do you believe I don't know this? >It is not some idle argument for them.  

Nor for me. >The >reality  for most posters is "excellent" doesn't describe their >relationship with fruit.  

Some type 2s, perhaps, but I would be certain that many type 2s and all type 1s would find some fruit excellent for them if they take the oft repeated advice to try a little and test, test, test. Do you think ALL fruit should be regarded as off-limits for all diabetics? Notwithstanding the fact that my original sentence was referring to the fructose in these fruits. >While fruit has desirable qualities and I am >one of their strongest advocates the word "excellent" doesn't describe >the situation as most people here see.  

Excellent to me means enjoyable and nutritious. What does it mean to you? (Of course if you have an idiosyncratic response to some fruits at some times of the day, then they aren't excellent for you, but I thought this was obvious. Sorry, I must be more careful in my observations. >"Discretion" figures more >prominently.  

For everybody, when they are trying them out, at first. If they have no adverse reaction, then they are excellent YMMV, IMHO. >Tropical fruit tends to spike many people.

Because they have more glucose, less fructose. I seem to recall someone advocating mango, but from the GI tables, this would not be a likely candidate for an excellent food for some diabetics. Of course so much depends on what you eat it with and test, test, test. > People tend >to limit themselves to what they find works for them eg two serves a >day or eating only berries or subtropical fruit.  

Highly recommended. As I said previously, there is some ongoing research here that looks like loosening some of the previous restrictions on fruit. When I hear, I will post. >Always the emphasis >in on discretion, not blanket advocacy of fruit.  

See above. Blanket advocacy of any food is surely not an underlying rule of coping with diabetes. I thought this was understood. Sorry. >Secondly, you have in other posts advocated fructose as a sweetener >for diabetics.

In preference to the same quantity of glucose. But never have I advocated adding any "sugar" IIRC. >IMHO that is very dangerous advice.  

More dangerous than using glucose? That's what you are saying. >Fruit does not >equate to fructose.  

No, but it contains most of that which we should be eating. Your postulate is that it is a dangerous substance that should be avoided, No? >Most fruit has fructose only because it contains >sucrose or fructose and glucose in the same proportions as sucrose.  

Or because it has fructose in it?  :) jl

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - >This post not CC'd by email >I just did a Google on trans fats and came across the Mercola site >with a Dr Enig. >A sentence that stood our was: >"Americans eat too much fat (especially partially hydrogenated >vegetable oils) and not enough fruits and vegetables." >Seems to say it all, really. IMHO.  Well at least most of it  :) >G'day G'day Joe, >  Which part seems to say it all?   >Dr Enig is (in)famous for her politicizing of "The oiling of America." >She is not so famous for doing peer reviewed research.  To put it >mildly she is/was considered a bit of an out caste from the mainstream >of nutritional  research.  Her basic premise is that saturated fats >have been taking the bad rap for trans monounsaturated fats that are >accidentally produced in the partial hydrogenation of the seed oils eg >canola, corn, sunflower. For her saturated fats are fine and trans >fats evil. Further more she alleges all manner of cover ups for >example in estimating the amount of trans fat in the US diet.  

Yes, I thought the Mercola site seemed a bit shonky, but I asked in a few places a while ago and got no response, so I just went with my gut feeling (pun intended). No, the only bit that says it all for me was the sentence I quoted, nothing else. >That doesn't make the opinion quoted less true.   >As it happens it is a statement I could have written myself, since it >represent my beliefs pretty well.   It just means if you wish to quote >authorities it pays to know the reputation of the authority, if you >wish to take the stance of presenting the mainstream view.

Agree, I was just mentioning the site that I saw it on, during a search for trans fats. Thanks for your confirmation of my suspicions. The sentence could have been written by any sensible commentator. jl

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This post not CC'd by email >Quentin, this point of view is also supported in the recent edition of >Nutrition Action newsletter, which is published by the Center for >Science in the Public Interest.  This edition is an overview of fats, >based upon the most recent research.  Good information there.  A couple >of nice charts ... one showing sources of Omega 3 fats, another with a >breakdown of 18 different fats according to percentage saturated, >monounsaturated, polyunsaturated (linoleic acid and alpha-linoleic) and >other.  Be glad to scan an email any of this if it interests you. >Richard

Thank you Richard,   One of the reasons I persist is the hope that I will learn more, especially that what I thought was true because "everyone" believes it needs revising.  Mark Twain summed it up something like this, "It ain't what you know but what you know that isn't so that bites ya." My apologies to S. Clements and all his descendants for any misquotation that may materially alter what he said. -- Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC'd by email >Yep that's it.  Five times the input. >Five times the production of triglycerides. >No, half the quantity of fructose, and glucose in excess will go to >tgs as well as fructose (well almost) >See, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about the >naturally occurring fructose in fruits, whereas you are talking about >what I would call gross excesses of its consumption.

G'day G'day Joe,   This is often at the crux of things.  It is a matter of audience. Readers here fall into a number of categories.  Here are a couple. There are those who have been here for a while.  For the most part it won't matter what either of us say.  They are doing whatever works well enough for them they aren't prepared to change.  The gains as they see it a less than the perceived rewards.   There are those who are new.  Some of them are desperately looking for a fix ... preferably a quick fix.   Many of them are habituated to diets that are high in processed sugars and fats.  It is part of the lifestyle.  There is nothing that many of them would like more than to retain that lifestyle with minimal changes eg replace refined sucrose with refined fructose.  My point is it won't change their existing patterns of consumption though they will appear to be doing better because their bg meter tells them so.   > Fats, proteins >and carbohydrates will all cause problems if consumed in excess, and >fructose is little different from all the others. Bit slower absorbed, >so less likely to cause a bg spike in a diabetic, but every 4 calories >in excess will add a gram of fat to the spare tyre  :)

-- Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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--snip-- >   Which part seems to say it all? > Dr Enig is (in)famous for her politicizing of "The oiling of America." > She is not so famous for doing peer reviewed research.  To put it > mildly she is/was considered a bit of an out caste from the mainstream > of nutritional  research.  Her basic premise is that saturated fats > have been taking the bad rap for trans monounsaturated fats that are > accidentally produced in the partial hydrogenation of the seed oils eg > canola, corn, sunflower. For her saturated fats are fine and trans > fats evil. Further more she alleges all manner of cover ups for > example in estimating the amount of trans fat in the US diet. > That doesn't make the opinion quoted less true.

Quentin, this point of view is also supported in the recent edition of Nutrition Action newsletter, which is published by the Center for Science in the Public Interest.  This edition is an overview of fats, based upon the most recent research.  Good information there.  A couple of nice charts ... one showing sources of Omega 3 fats, another with a breakdown of 18 different fats according to percentage saturated, monounsaturated, polyunsaturated (linoleic acid and alpha-linoleic) and other.  Be glad to scan an email any of this if it interests you. Richard

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This post not CC'd by email >I just did a Google on trans fats and came across the Mercola site >with a Dr Enig. >A sentence that stood our was: >"Americans eat too much fat (especially partially hydrogenated >vegetable oils) and not enough fruits and vegetables." >Seems to say it all, really. IMHO.  Well at least most of it  :)

G'day G'day Joe,   Which part seems to say it all?   Dr Enig is (in)famous for her politicizing of "The oiling of America." She is not so famous for doing peer reviewed research.  To put it mildly she is/was considered a bit of an out caste from the mainstream of nutritional  research.  Her basic premise is that saturated fats have been taking the bad rap for trans monounsaturated fats that are accidentally produced in the partial hydrogenation of the seed oils eg canola, corn, sunflower. For her saturated fats are fine and trans fats evil. Further more she alleges all manner of cover ups for example in estimating the amount of trans fat in the US diet.     That doesn't make the opinion quoted less true.   As it happens it is a statement I could have written myself, since it represent my beliefs pretty well.   It just means if you wish to quote authorities it pays to know the reputation of the authority, if you wish to take the stance of presenting the mainstream view. -- Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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This post not CC'd by email >There are researchers who are of the opinion that fructose in >combination with fat is also unhealthy.   >So I believe. But if you don't add refined, hydrogenated, or other >fats to your diet and only eat the 25 to 30% that is unavoidable in >eating a whole food diet, and you don't eat refined flour, or refined >sugars, then you can't go wrong. Fruit (fructose) is excellent even >for diabetics.

G'day G'day Joe,   Sometimes people give up when confronted with a barrage of commonly held believes.  The long sentences seem to refer to refined fats and carbs. That is the barrage.  The point we are supposed to believe is contained in the short sentence, "Fruit (fructose) is excellent even for diabetics" OK.  What is a refined fat?   Is lard a refined fat? How about coconut oil? The answers are unimportant as most readers have knee jerk response to the word "refined"    There are IMHO many reasons to select less processed source of fats eg if one eats whole nuts one gets the full range of natural tocopherols ie the Vit E that works. There are also phytosterols etc. Even hydrogenated is not as simple as it seems.   When fully hydrogenated the transfats disappear.  Unfortunately most of the solid cooking compound used for deep frying still contain trans fats. It is also hard to argue with whole food.  Most people here advocate whole food.  Some on general principles. Some because it works. That brings us to the >Fruit (fructose) is excellent even for diabetics.

How would YOU know?  As I understand it you are not a diabetic. The people who post here for the most part have a lot to lose by getting things wrong. It is not some idle argument for them.  The reality  for most posters is "excellent" doesn't describe their relationship with fruit.  While fruit has desirable qualities and I am one of their strongest advocates the word "excellent" doesn't describe the situation as most people here see.   "Discretion" figures more prominently.   Tropical fruit tends to spike many people.  People tend to limit themselves to what they find works for them eg two serves a day or eating only berries or subtropical fruit.  Always the emphasis in on discretion, not blanket advocacy of fruit.   Secondly, you have in other posts advocated fructose as a sweetener for diabetics. IMHO that is very dangerous advice.  Fruit does not equate to fructose.  Most fruit has fructose only because it contains sucrose or fructose and glucose in the same proportions as sucrose.   -- Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - >This post not CC'd by email >There's a bit of that, but I've heard personally from experts I've >talked to, that the fructose thing is still up in the air. >In the last day or so, I got to have a chat with a >biochemist/dietician and a diabetic centre dietician. >G'day G'day Joe, >  I don't have access to friendly biochemists locally though from time >to time people doing research write to me. So I guess it is up to me >to take up this side of the discussion without the benefit of pocket >authorities.   >   Let's take the statements one by one. > They both >explained that fructose and glucose were pretty equal in the blood. >OK so in their opinion one gram of fructose and one gram of glucose in >the blood has pretty much the same consequences.  The exceptions might >be important but for the moment lets assume they are not.   >What would be the consequence if that statement was true? >That is our question for the moment. >  If people weigh their foods and follow a diet as they might if >taking the advice of diabetic centre dietician then yes things could >be equal.  One gram of excess fructose would put on as much fat as one >gram of excess glucose.  However alt.support.diabetes is the land of >statistical weirdness for diabetics, many people here eat by their >blood glucose meters.  Whatever the case is in Australia or elsewhere, >in New Zealand most people use a meter which is specific to glucose. >Clinistix are only commonly used for urine testing.  AFAIK urine >glucose testing is uncommon amongst T2s.   >OK so let us assume, so that we can pursue at least some points to a >conclusion, that one eats to the meter, assessing safety of carb >intake by one hour and two hour post prandial blood glucose readings. >IMHO with glucose and starches the blood glucose reading gives a >reasonably  honest estimate of carb intake.  With fructose and its GI >of 19 (Rick Mendosa's site average value) those who assess safety of >carb intake will eat FIVE times as much fructose as glucose.

No they won't. Glucose and fructose are isocaloric, and so both will be restricted, and as fructose is more then twice as sweet as glucose, it can be arguest that only half will be consumed for one tenth of the glycemic effect. >The advantage of fructose was it got there much more slowly. >Yes excess fructose caused the liver to produce triglycerides, just >like excess glucose. That's it. >Yep that's it.  Five times the input. >Five times the production of triglycerides.

No, half the quantity of fructose, and glucose in excess will go to tgs as well as fructose (well almost) See, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about the naturally occurring fructose in fruits, whereas you are talking about what I would call gross excesses of its consumption. Fats, proteins and carbohydrates will all cause problems if consumed in excess, and fructose is little different from all the others. Bit slower absorbed, so less likely to cause a bg spike in a diabetic, but every 4 calories in excess will add a gram of fat to the spare tyre  :) > Now they follow the latest research, >and have seen nothing to change their long held opinion of fructose. >It is the preferred sugar for diabetics, but a gram of it still has >four calories, and this must be always taken into account. >When someone says "It is the preferred sugar ... " that speech pattern >includes a lost performative.  The person and criteria used to make >the assessment are not explicitly stated.  

Fair enough. Bad expression, although it gives me the pip when Microscrote tries to convert everything from passive to active. What I mean is simply better -- more advantages than the comparison. >I can assume you are referring to the people you have talking to.

Nope, see above. >That would be reasonable ... however it would be pure mind reading to >guess on what basis they are making their assessment.  

The properties they expressed about these two sugars. Isocaloric, equally damaging in excess, but fructose trickle into the blood one fifth the rate that glucose does. They did mention that fructose in high levels cause liver anomalies, but this rarely happens with a good diet, whatever that means exactly, although I have my own ideas from reading the biochemist's book >An assessment based on assumptions of equal intake could be quite >different from assessments based on assumptions of equal post prandial >blood glucose outcomes.

Not sure here. Sucrose, and honey and many fruits are roughly 50:50 glucose:fructose. I have heard that high fructose corn syrup (hfcs) is also about 50:50 despite its name. Neverthless, on an unamended diet, the worst you could do would be a roughly isocaloric intake of g&f. This will cause a spike from the glucose component,and a very slow curve from the fructose component. >You might like to share this post with them >and discuss it with them.  If nothing else it will jolly up their >morning coffee/tea break conversations.

I'm sure it will. jl

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This post not CC'd by email >There's a bit of that, but I've heard personally from experts I've >talked to, that the fructose thing is still up in the air. >In the last day or so, I got to have a chat with a >biochemist/dietician and a diabetic centre dietician.

G'day G'day Joe,   I don't have access to friendly biochemists locally though from time to time people doing research write to me. So I guess it is up to me to take up this side of the discussion without the benefit of pocket authorities.      Let's take the statements one by one. > They both >explained that fructose and glucose were pretty equal in the blood.

OK so in their opinion one gram of fructose and one gram of glucose in the blood has pretty much the same consequences.  The exceptions might be important but for the moment lets assume they are not.   What would be the consequence if that statement was true? That is our question for the moment.   If people weigh their foods and follow a diet as they might if taking the advice of diabetic centre dietician then yes things could be equal.  One gram of excess fructose would put on as much fat as one gram of excess glucose.  However alt.support.diabetes is the land of statistical weirdness for diabetics, many people here eat by their blood glucose meters.  Whatever the case is in Australia or elsewhere, in New Zealand most people use a meter which is specific to glucose. Clinistix are only commonly used for urine testing.  AFAIK urine glucose testing is uncommon amongst T2s.   OK so let us assume, so that we can pursue at least some points to a conclusion, that one eats to the meter, assessing safety of carb intake by one hour and two hour post prandial blood glucose readings. IMHO with glucose and starches the blood glucose reading gives a reasonably  honest estimate of carb intake.  With fructose and its GI of 19 (Rick Mendosa's site average value) those who assess safety of carb intake will eat FIVE times as much fructose as glucose. >The advantage of fructose was it got there much more slowly. >Yes excess fructose caused the liver to produce triglycerides, just >like excess glucose. That's it.

Yep that's it.  Five times the input. Five times the production of triglycerides. > Now they follow the latest research, >and have seen nothing to change their long held opinion of fructose. >It is the preferred sugar for diabetics, but a gram of it still has >four calories, and this must be always taken into account.

When someone says "It is the preferred sugar ... " that speech pattern includes a lost performative.  The person and criteria used to make the assessment are not explicitly stated.   I can assume you are referring to the people you have talking to. That would be reasonable ... however it would be pure mind reading to guess on what basis they are making their assessment.   An assessment based on assumptions of equal intake could be quite different from assessments based on assumptions of equal post prandial blood glucose outcomes. You might like to share this post with them and discuss it with them.  If nothing else it will jolly up their morning coffee/tea break conversations. Best wishes, -- Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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>Wow!  That was a nicely waged argument!  Ok now for the biggie.. >I'm a t2 and imo huge.  How does this affect me?  What should I be >eating not too much of?

Everything  :) Sorry, but I reckon the biggest problem is excess weight. I don't like this fact, personally, but I believe it is the truth. Apart from that, avoid foods that spike you, and highly refined carb foods (white flour, sugar etc) and cutting down on fat is how I attack calorie restriction - it's easier. You might find as a type 2, that you can increase yout protein and fat intake a little so you can reduce your carbohydrates. IMO, fructose should not be avoided in moderation, it's somewhat better for a type 2 than glucose, but as I said in the beginning, cut all of it down. jl

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- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text - >This post not CC'd by email >>>>>Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >>>See above, parents, food and work. >>Perhaps you are suggesting these are the only factors.  That could >>represent you belief.  It would form part of mine but not all of it. >Not sure what you have in mind for any other causes. I thought this >triumvirate covered all bases. It's the interconnection that is a >little confused. Chicken and egg. >G'day G'day Joe, >  Expressed as parents, food and work it probably does.  However at >one stage food was more closely defined as eating too much.  IMHO >consumption of calories in excess is a major part of the problem but >not the whole problem.  Some part of the problem is eating the wrong >sort of foods.  People have differing views on what the wrong sort of >food might be.  However there are some large scale studies that indict >specific foods eg the Nurses' study specifically indicts trans fats >not finding other fats to be causative in isocaloric diets.

I just did a Google on trans fats and came across the Mercola site with a Dr Enig. A sentence that stood our was: "Americans eat too much fat (especially partially hydrogenated vegetable oils) and not enough fruits and vegetables." Seems to say it all, really. IMHO.  Well at least most of it  :) >There are researchers who are of the opinion that fructose in >combination with fat is also unhealthy.  

So I believe. But if you don't add refined, hydrogenated, or other fats to your diet and only eat the 25 to 30% that is unavoidable in eating a whole food diet, and you don't eat refined flour, or refined sugars, then you can't go wrong. Fruit (fructose) is excellent even for diabetics. >My point here is simple, it >isn't only genetics plus the total calories input vs output that >determines whether or not one gets diabetes.  

It obviously contributes a Hell of a lot. Aboriginal people and Westerners didn't have the epidemic of diabetes until they started to overconsume, and under-exercise. Cars and manufactured foods. When I was a kid, we mowed the grass with a hand push mower. >Some of the effects with >people making a transition from subsistence diets to Western diets >have significant maternal effects that can look for all the world like >genetic effects.  

Yep, I'm sure this is part of it, but how big a part? There are many folk who can survise the Western lifestyle with elan. >The ... its all excess calories, insufficient >exercise and genetics summary ... needs to be treated cautiously.

OK, fair comment. Howsabout "Mostly excess calories, insufficient exercise and genetics" >At the very least believing it uncritically blinds one to the >possibility of discovering other facets.

I agree strongly. I have however not seen any evidence of any problem not easily put at the door of excessive consumption. My diet isn't perfect. It is excessive. It contains too much meat. When my overseas visitors naff off home, We will be reducing meat consumption for health and cost factors, and reducing consumption overall, and increasing exercise -- my orthopaedic injuries will be back to my pre-accident status. We eat NO spreads (butter, marg etc) (except a smear of low fat cheese spread on the dry wholegrain toast for breakfast) We use very little olive oil. And skim milk in out tea. We bake our own whole grain bread. It will get perfecter and perfecter. There will be no "trans" fats, and the same amount of fructose as out cave dwelling fourbears jl     [hopefully]

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This post not CC’d by email >>>>Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >>See above, parents, food and work. >Perhaps you are suggesting these are the only factors.  That could >represent you belief.  It would form part of mine but not all of it. >Not sure what you have in mind for any other causes. I thought this >triumvirate covered all bases. It’s the interconnection that is a >little confused. Chicken and egg.

G’day G’day Joe,   Expressed as parents, food and work it probably does.  However at one stage food was more closely defined as eating too much.  IMHO consumption of calories in excess is a major part of the problem but not the whole problem.  Some part of the problem is eating the wrong sort of foods.  People have differing views on what the wrong sort of food might be.  However there are some large scale studies that indict specific foods eg the Nurses’ study specifically indicts trans fats not finding other fats to be causative in isocaloric diets. There are researchers who are of the opinion that fructose in combination with fat is also unhealthy.  My point here is simple, it isn’t only genetics plus the total calories input vs output that determines whether or not one gets diabetes.  Some of the effects with people making a transition from subsistence diets to Western diets have significant maternal effects that can look for all the world like genetic effects.  The … its all excess calories, insufficient exercise and genetics summary … needs to be treated cautiously. At the very least believing it uncritically blinds one to the possibility of discovering other facets. — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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Wow!  That was a nicely waged argument!  Ok now for the biggie.. I'm a t2 and imo huge.  How does this affect me?  What should I be eating not too much of? regards Martin.

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->  I attempted to summarize an article in New Scientist.  It could be >tempting to interpret that article.  Whatever the cause the essential >point being made is that T2 diabetes, elevated triglycerides and high >blood pressure are metabolic disorders that are often somehow related. >If choosing wrong parents, eating too much and not exercise enough is >a factor in T2 diabetes then it is also likely to be a factor in >elevated triglycerides and high blood pressure. > Of course. It seems to be unclear as to what causes what. Overweight > seems to cause blood fat aberrations, hypertension, and IR, but then > there is apparently some evidence that may point to these being the > *result* of something, not the cause. >>>>It is called Syndrome X. >>>>While it is a YMMV thing the three underlying features are >>>>1. high triglycerides, >>>>2. high blood pressure, >>>>3. insulin resistance. >>>>Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >>See above, parents, food and work. >Perhaps you are suggesting these are the only factors.  That could >represent you belief.  It would form part of mine but not all of it. > Not sure what you have in mind for any other causes. I thought this > triumvirate covered all bases. It's the interconnection that is a > little confused. Chicken and egg. >>>>The "New Scientist" article 1 Sept 2001 is worth the read if you can >>>>find a copy.  It has some colour diagrams that make the concepts >>>>expressed in the article even clearer. >>From your summary, it appears that this work has been pushed by Zammit >>for a decade or more. >>Many apparently disagree with him. >Since the issue is of importance I am not only interested in who >disagree with him but in why they disagree.  The only argument worth >winning for any of us is how to live with this condition. > Exactly. And the caution message that I get, is not to be too extreme > in any lifestyle choice, but to perhaps take a middle road, unless > there is clear, incontrovertable agreement that some things should be > followed, like reducing high BGs. >>>>Insulin normally STOPS the liver from releasing fats escorted around >>>>the blood stream as VLDL after a meal.  This is important because the >>>>enzymes that would remove the fats are busy dealing with fats from the >>>>meal.  If this doesn't happen then follow on processes lead to >>>>arterial blockages. >>>>Zammit's rat research shows the OFF switch fails when the diet >>>>contains frequent high energy snacks.  Insulin now PROMOTES fat >>>>release from the liver. >>>>It is as though the wiring for the fat release switch has been >>>>reversed. >>>>That begins a vicious cycle. >>>>High circulating fats make muscle cells insulin resistant. >>>>More insulin is produced. >>>>Eventually the adipose cells where fat gets stored get insulin >>>>resistant as well.  The excess circulating fat kills off insulin >>>>secreting pancreatic cells, insulin drops and that is how many of us >>>>arrived at alt.support.diabetes or misc.health.diabetes >>Nice theory, but who agrees with it? >I assume the question is rhetorical. > Just really a comment that much of the "ways" are still up in the air. >>>>Fructose is SELECTIVELY shunted towards the liver and the formation of >>>>fats. >>Just like glucose. >OK.  That is not how I understood things to be. My understanding is >that the liver deals with fructose in preference to glucose. > Perhaps, but by how much? If fructose is trickled into the bloodstream > so slowly.... > Bodyfat is made out of ingested triglycerides and glucose in the huge > majority. Any excess hexoses are converted to triglycerides. > Does it really matter whether fructose goes first or glucose does? >Perhaps >there is a better way of expressing this but high blood glucose levels >occur whereas high blood fructose levels don't. > Well that seems good, as frutosylation of proteins is less likely to > occur. If the diet is maintenance or less, then fructose will be > absorbed into cells and used for metabolic energy. > Glucose quick, fructose slow. Just what a body chased by sabre-toothed > tigers require, I would have thought. >This could be accounted for by the slow absorption of fructose >relative to glucose but personally I think there is another factor >operating. > I wouldn't be at all surprised. I just wish someone could point me to > it. I've read and looked and so far found little (except in bloody > Turkish >IMHO the liver preferentially gets rid of fructose.  It >seems to be what Zammit is saying.  I am interested in what other >active researchers in the field are saying. > Me too. It is clear from my readings that fructose is passively > absorbed into the bloodstream from the small intestine, as opposed to > glucose and galactose's active transport across this barrier. > What this has to do with speed of absorption, I am only guessing. > Fructose, when it is absorbed can be converted to glucose (and I think > much is) or absorbed directly (as fructose 6-phosphate) into the cells > as energy. Galactose cannot be used thus and all of it must be > converted to glucose where glucose 6-phosphate can be absorbed into > the body cells for energy. > Any excess glucose or fructose may be stored temporarily in the liver > as glycogen, and then converted to triglycerides for more longterm > storage in fat cells. This tg production is carried in the > bloodstream, affecting blood lipids, and thus it is excess input over > energy needs that are primarily responsible. IMO so far  :) >>>It provides one of the building blocks for triglycerides ie >>>>fats. >>But most tg fat not from ingested fatty acids is made from excess >>glucose in the liver. >The statement refers to fructose as ONE of the building blocks ... > Well all excess energy will end up round the tum eventually. > Glucose, fructose, same thing, and I don't know why it is important > which goes first. >>>>Fructose also directly stimulates the liver to release >>>>triglycerides. >You don't seem to be disagreeing with this statement. > I don't know. Are you saying that it "stimulates" without being > converted to triglycerides? Doesn't glucose "stimulate" tg production > by being turned into it? >>Amongst other things. The beauty of fructose is that it only arrives >>in a trickle. >When you use the word "beauty" I have to recognise that you have an >opinion about fructose. > Nah, it's probably just my trans-Tasman propensity for hyperbole and > understatement  :) > I really just mean "a possible advantage". Sorry. >This is where our discussions are important. >My opinion that while fructose has a low GI it isn't necessarily safe >for T2 diabetics is well known to any regular reader. > This is only very recent. Frucose is well documented in older > reference books as "a very sweet sugar suitable for diabetics" > Many "experts still hold to this. Are they wrong? I don't know. Some > say yes, and some say no. > [the experts I have so recently asked about this say that nothing has > changed] >Here it appears >you have taken a different position. > Purely agnosticism, with a bit of Devil’s Advocate thrown in. > I’m wary of apparent divergences from long-held knowledge without some > solid convincing — must be getting old and conservative  :) >That is OK so long as we thrash >out what we can regarding the truth of each and any of our >assumptions. > Great. That’s what this forum is so good for. I’m learning heaps. >To put the issues bluntly here is how I think we are polarized. >Quentin: Fructose is more dangerous than glucose. >Joe:     Fructose is less dangerous than glucose. > That’s probably a succinct statement of out positions. >If your opinion differs from the one stated please correct the >statement. >Perhaps you are playing devil’s advocate.  That’s cool. > There’s a bit of that, but I’ve heard personally from experts I’ve > talked to, that the fructose thing is still up in the air. > In the last day or so, I got to have a chat with a > biochemist/dietician and a diabetic centre dietician. They both > explained that fructose and glucose were pretty equal in the blood. > The advantage of fructose was it got there much more slowly. > Yes excess fructose caused the liver to produce triglycerides, just > like excess glucose. That’s it. Now they follow the latest research, > and have seen nothing to change their long held opinion of fructose. > It is the preferred sugar for diabetics, but a gram of it still has > four calories, and this must be always taken into account. >>>>John Bantle, University of Minnesota. >>>>Two dozen healthy volunteers were fed a diet with 17% of calories as >>>>fructose and then a diet nearly devoid of fructose.  The effects were >>>>worse for men. They turned out to be more sensitive to fructose than >>>>women. >>He did this in Nov 1992, I believe. Why have we heard nothing much >>since. >Oh.  There have been some regarding the benefits of fruit.  Fruit >consumption seems to be beneficial for women but not for men. > According to ongoing research here, fruit is fine for diabetics, so > long as it is spread out at least two hours between tennis ball sized > portions. The research is saying that this may be relaxed, apparently. > [type 1 only AFAIK] >What >the real

… read more »

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This post not CC’d by email >For myself the take home message is cut the snacks. > >>>Eat regular meals. >By this I presume to cut the cakes, bikkies and ice-cream from in >between meals and not the "Jan Diet"

G’day G’day Jan,   There is often discussion about what people evolved to eat.   I find it easier to recognise what they didn’t evolve to eat. It is hard to imagine a scenario where primitive people had access to large amounts of sugar and fat at the same time eg as in icecream, confectionery, energy bars.   IMHO it is artifact of the industrial age.   Here are some US dietary figures for the source of carbs in their diet, (USDA National Food Review 1987). Sugar         40% Grains        36% Fruits         7% Dairy          6% Potatoes       5% Vegetables     4% Legumes&nuts   2% Without the rolling mills to crush the sugar cane or clever chemists using enzymes to convert corn syrup into high fructose corn syrup sweetener the top item of the list disappears. The percentage of fructose as a contributed to carbs backs off from something like 20% to say 5%.  At that level there is some evidence it is beneficial compared to straight glucose substrates like starch. Best wishes, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "... and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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http://www.faqs.org/faqs/diabetes/ > doesn't address personal responsibility for preventing T2 from > happening to others, especially the innocent others namely children.

Yes, especially when there are kids already with the genetic background.  Like my kids.  Both parents, a bunch of grandparents, great grandparents and great aunts and uncles in the lineage.  Or my little Jasmine. People with Down syndrome have a higher risk of developing diabetes than the average population.  She also has asthma, sometimes needing steroids which makes her little bg's soar! Poor child has a triple whammy as well as not having the mental capacity to understand why she can't have as much food as she wants.  We have quite the battles sometimes.

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>  I attempted to summarize an article in New Scientist.  It could be >tempting to interpret that article.  Whatever the cause the essential >point being made is that T2 diabetes, elevated triglycerides and high >blood pressure are metabolic disorders that are often somehow related. >If choosing wrong parents, eating too much and not exercise enough is >a factor in T2 diabetes then it is also likely to be a factor in >elevated triglycerides and high blood pressure.  

Of course. It seems to be unclear as to what causes what. Overweight seems to cause blood fat aberrations, hypertension, and IR, but then there is apparently some evidence that may point to these being the *result* of something, not the cause. >>>It is called Syndrome X.   >>>While it is a YMMV thing the three underlying features are >>>1. high triglycerides, >>>2. high blood pressure, >>>3. insulin resistance. >>>Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >See above, parents, food and work. >Perhaps you are suggesting these are the only factors.  That could >represent you belief.  It would form part of mine but not all of it.

Not sure what you have in mind for any other causes. I thought this triumvirate covered all bases. It's the interconnection that is a little confused. Chicken and egg. >>>The "New Scientist" article 1 Sept 2001 is worth the read if you can >>>find a copy.  It has some colour diagrams that make the concepts >>>expressed in the article even clearer. >From your summary, it appears that this work has been pushed by Zammit >for a decade or more. >Many apparently disagree with him. >Since the issue is of importance I am not only interested in who >disagree with him but in why they disagree.  The only argument worth >winning for any of us is how to live with this condition.

Exactly. And the caution message that I get, is not to be too extreme in any lifestyle choice, but to perhaps take a middle road, unless there is clear, incontrovertable agreement that some things should be followed, like reducing high BGs. - Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text ->>>Insulin normally STOPS the liver from releasing fats escorted around >>>the blood stream as VLDL after a meal.  This is important because the >>>enzymes that would remove the fats are busy dealing with fats from the >>>meal.  If this doesn't happen then follow on processes lead to >>>arterial blockages. >>>Zammit's rat research shows the OFF switch fails when the diet >>>contains frequent high energy snacks.  Insulin now PROMOTES fat >>>release from the liver.   >>>It is as though the wiring for the fat release switch has been >>>reversed. >>>That begins a vicious cycle.   >>>High circulating fats make muscle cells insulin resistant. >>>More insulin is produced. >>>Eventually the adipose cells where fat gets stored get insulin >>>resistant as well.  The excess circulating fat kills off insulin >>>secreting pancreatic cells, insulin drops and that is how many of us >>>arrived at alt.support.diabetes or misc.health.diabetes >Nice theory, but who agrees with it? >I assume the question is rhetorical.

Just really a comment that much of the "ways" are still up in the air. >>>Fructose is SELECTIVELY shunted towards the liver and the formation of >>>fats.   >Just like glucose. >OK.  That is not how I understood things to be. My understanding is >that the liver deals with fructose in preference to glucose.  

Perhaps, but by how much? If fructose is trickled into the bloodstream so slowly.... Bodyfat is made out of ingested triglycerides and glucose in the huge majority. Any excess hexoses are converted to triglycerides. Does it really matter whether fructose goes first or glucose does? >Perhaps >there is a better way of expressing this but high blood glucose levels >occur whereas high blood fructose levels don't.  

Well that seems good, as frutosylation of proteins is less likely to occur. If the diet is maintenance or less, then fructose will be absorbed into cells and used for metabolic energy. Glucose quick, fructose slow. Just what a body chased by sabre-toothed tigers require, I would have thought. >This could be accounted for by the slow absorption of fructose >relative to glucose but personally I think there is another factor >operating.

I wouldn't be at all surprised. I just wish someone could point me to it. I've read and looked and so far found little (except in bloody Turkish >IMHO the liver preferentially gets rid of fructose.  It >seems to be what Zammit is saying.  I am interested in what other >active researchers in the field are saying.  

Me too. It is clear from my readings that fructose is passively absorbed into the bloodstream from the small intestine, as opposed to glucose and galactose's active transport across this barrier. What this has to do with speed of absorption, I am only guessing. Fructose, when it is absorbed can be converted to glucose (and I think much is) or absorbed directly (as fructose 6-phosphate) into the cells as energy. Galactose cannot be used thus and all of it must be converted to glucose where glucose 6-phosphate can be absorbed into the body cells for energy. Any excess glucose or fructose may be stored temporarily in the liver as glycogen, and then converted to triglycerides for more longterm storage in fat cells. This tg production is carried in the bloodstream, affecting blood lipids, and thus it is excess input over energy needs that are primarily responsible. IMO so far  :) >>It provides one of the building blocks for triglycerides ie >>>fats.   >But most tg fat not from ingested fatty acids is made from excess >glucose in the liver. >The statement refers to fructose as ONE of the building blocks ...

Well all excess energy will end up round the tum eventually. Glucose, fructose, same thing, and I don't know why it is important which goes first. >>>Fructose also directly stimulates the liver to release >>>triglycerides. >You don't seem to be disagreeing with this statement.

I don't know. Are you saying that it "stimulates" without being converted to triglycerides? Doesn't glucose "stimulate" tg production by being turned into it? >Amongst other things. The beauty of fructose is that it only arrives >in a trickle. >When you use the word "beauty" I have to recognise that you have an >opinion about fructose.  

Nah, it's probably just my trans-Tasman propensity for hyperbole and understatement  :) I really just mean "a possible advantage". Sorry. >This is where our discussions are important. >My opinion that while fructose has a low GI it isn't necessarily safe >for T2 diabetics is well known to any regular reader.  

This is only very recent. Frucose is well documented in older reference books as "a very sweet sugar suitable for diabetics" Many "experts still hold to this. Are they wrong? I don't know. Some say yes, and some say no. [the experts I have so recently asked about this say that nothing has changed] >Here it appears >you have taken a different position.  

Purely agnosticism, with a bit of Devil’s Advocate thrown in. I’m wary of apparent divergences from long-held knowledge without some solid convincing — must be getting old and conservative  :) >That is OK so long as we thrash >out what we can regarding the truth of each and any of our >assumptions.  

Great. That’s what this forum is so good for. I’m learning heaps. >To put the issues bluntly here is how I think we are polarized. >Quentin: Fructose is more dangerous than glucose. >Joe:     Fructose is less dangerous than glucose.

That’s probably a succinct statement of out positions. >If your opinion differs from the one stated please correct the >statement. >Perhaps you are playing devil’s advocate.  That’s cool.

There’s a bit of that, but I’ve heard personally from experts I’ve talked to, that the fructose thing is still up in the air. In the last day or so, I got to have a chat with a biochemist/dietician and a diabetic centre dietician. They both explained that fructose and glucose were pretty equal in the blood. The advantage of fructose was it got there much more slowly. Yes excess fructose caused the liver to produce triglycerides, just like excess glucose. That’s it. Now they follow the latest research, and have seen nothing to change their long held opinion of fructose. It is the preferred sugar for diabetics, but a gram of it still has four calories, and this must be always taken into account. >>>John Bantle, University of Minnesota. >>>Two dozen healthy volunteers were fed a diet with 17% of calories as >>>fructose and then a diet nearly devoid of fructose.  The effects were >>>worse for men. They turned out to be more sensitive to fructose than >>>women.   >He did this in Nov 1992, I believe. Why have we heard nothing much >since. >Oh.  There have been some regarding the benefits of fruit.  Fruit >consumption seems to be beneficial for women but not for men.  

According to ongoing research here, fruit is fine for diabetics, so long as it is spread out at least two hours between tennis ball sized portions. The research is saying that this may be relaxed, apparently. [type 1 only AFAIK] >What >the real reason for this is I don’t know but it does fit with the idea >that men are more sensitive to fructose than women.

Sorry, sensitive in what way? Is it absorbed faster in men? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>The order of sensitivity to fructose is rats, men and lastly women. >>>Draw your own conclusions on that one.  <grin> >>>The high fructose diet increased triglycerides by 32% in men and worse >>>the liver spewed them out after meals when fat would normally be high. >>>Put simply the after dinner fat spike damages the arteries. >>>(As an aside, the average American diet has 40% calories from sugar >>>and high fructose corn syrup. That means

… read more »

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>For myself the take home message is cut the snacks. >>>Eat regular meals.

By this I presume to cut the cakes, bikkies and ice-cream from in between meals and not the "Jan Diet"

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This post not CC’d by email – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This post not CC’d by email > Since the issue is of importance I am not only interested in who > disagree with him but in why they disagree.  The only argument >worth > winning for any of us is how to live with this condition. >(All else snipped to comment on this particular insight). >I wish all the people who get interested in these kind of research >questions would keep in mind what the bottom line is, as you so >obviously do, Quentin. Sadly, some seem to get more interested in >winning the "argument" or point scoring than the original purpose >for which this research is supposed to be intended, i.e. to raise >the health levels of the general population in regard to Syndrome X >and T2 DM. >I am selfish enough to want to live a longer and more productive >life, but the lately  the focus is shifting to the alarming increase >in children (under 20 years of age) who are being dx’d with T2.  (I >recently discussed this with a person who attended the conference in >China, at which leading health professionals, whose interest is in >diabetes, and were from all over the globe,  rated this as the most >urgent problem relating to diet at the moment. )  She called it an >"explosion" of T2 in children.

G’day G’day Annette, Thank you for reminding me of this.  When I said "The only argument worth winning for any of us is how to live with this condition." that doesn’t address personal responsibility for preventing T2 from happening to others, especially the innocent others namely children. Frankly I find shouldering that responsibility overwhelming.  Or least that is how it feels.  I know only to well that I intended to get the issue of trans fats in fast food in New Zealand on the political agenda for the upcoming elections.   The election is on Saturday and political awareness of this issue is zip.   An official US statement rated one soft drink per day as sufficient to raise the risk of obesity in teenagers by 60%.  When one considers the influence of advertising and peer pressure those who consider holding back the tide have to realise what they are up against. >The US is not the only country so afflicted.  This is an issue that >is affecting a lot of developed nations.

An in a lot less affluent countries who will be less able to "fix" the problems with high tech solutions like laser eye surgery etc. >It is trite, but true – >children are our future.  We better get it right, and soon. >Annette

Thanks Annette, — Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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> This post not CC’d by email > Since the issue is of importance I am not only interested in who > disagree with him but in why they disagree.  The only argument worth > winning for any of us is how to live with this condition.

(All else snipped to comment on this particular insight). I wish all the people who get interested in these kind of research questions would keep in mind what the bottom line is, as you so obviously do, Quentin. Sadly, some seem to get more interested in winning the "argument" or point scoring than the original purpose for which this research is supposed to be intended, i.e. to raise the health levels of the general population in regard to Syndrome X and T2 DM. I am selfish enough to want to live a longer and more productive life, but the lately  the focus is shifting to the alarming increase in children (under 20 years of age) who are being dx’d with T2.  (I recently discussed this with a person who attended the conference in China, at which leading health professionals, whose interest is in diabetes, and were from all over the globe,  rated this as the most urgent problem relating to diet at the moment. )  She called it an "explosion" of T2 in children. The US is not the only country so afflicted.  This is an issue that is affecting a lot of developed nations. It is trite, but true – children are our future.  We better get it right, and soon. Annette

Response:

This post not CC’d by email – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->G’day G’day Folks, >  In a thread on glycemic index Joe asked if I could repost a summary >I made of an article in New Scientist.   Here it is, >>  From time to time posters express surprise that their triglycerides >>or blood pressure is high.   >They chose the wrong parents, eat too much, and don’t exercise enough.

G’day G’day Joe,   I attempted to summarize an article in New Scientist.  It could be tempting to interpret that article.  Whatever the cause the essential point being made is that T2 diabetes, elevated triglycerides and high blood pressure are metabolic disorders that are often somehow related. If choosing wrong parents, eating too much and not exercise enough is a factor in T2 diabetes then it is also likely to be a factor in elevated triglycerides and high blood pressure.   >>As if having insulin resistance and a >>diagnosis of T2 diabetes isn’t enough there are these other issues to >>deal with.  Well in one sense they are all part of the same syndrome. >>It is called Syndrome X.   >>While it is a YMMV thing the three underlying features are >>1. high triglycerides, >>2. high blood pressure, >>3. insulin resistance. >>Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >See above, parents, food and work.

Perhaps you are suggesting these are the only factors.  That could represent you belief.  It would form part of mine but not all of it. >>The "New Scientist" article 1 Sept 2001 is worth the read if you can >>find a copy.  It has some colour diagrams that make the concepts >>expressed in the article even clearer. >From your summary, it appears that this work has been pushed by Zammit >for a decade or more. >Many apparently disagree with him.

Since the issue is of importance I am not only interested in who disagree with him but in why they disagree.  The only argument worth winning for any of us is how to live with this condition. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>What I’d like to do is present a summary of what is said in the >>article.   >>There are moments when I have had to rethink my beliefs and times when >>the writers confirm what I have read elsewhere and come to believe.   >>I have vigorously summarized the points of view. >>They are not literal quotes. >>Victor Zammit, head of cell biochemistry Hannah Research Institute. >>High levels of dietary saturated fats are bad. >>Under some circumstances the liver pours out saturated fats. >>Grazing pattern eating is a likely culprit. >As triglycerides are the method of longer term energy storage and a >source of some energy requirements, it is reasonable that the liver >shunts them around the place. Some are unavoidable in foods. >>Insulin normally STOPS the liver from releasing fats escorted around >>the blood stream as VLDL after a meal.  This is important because the >>enzymes that would remove the fats are busy dealing with fats from the >>meal.  If this doesn’t happen then follow on processes lead to >>arterial blockages. >>Zammit’s rat research shows the OFF switch fails when the diet >>contains frequent high energy snacks.  Insulin now PROMOTES fat >>release from the liver.   >>It is as though the wiring for the fat release switch has been >>reversed. >>That begins a vicious cycle.   >>High circulating fats make muscle cells insulin resistant. >>More insulin is produced. >>Eventually the adipose cells where fat gets stored get insulin >>resistant as well.  The excess circulating fat kills off insulin >>secreting pancreatic cells, insulin drops and that is how many of us >>arrived at alt.support.diabetes or misc.health.diabetes >Nice theory, but who agrees with it?

I assume the question is rhetorical. >>What is to be done about it? >>Christina Koutsari and Adrianne Hardman, University of Loughborough. >>Moderate daily exercise reduces circulating fats. >>Zammit again. >>1  Eat less often. Leave 4 or 5 hours between meals. >>2  More alcohol than 2 glasses of wine per day causes the liver to >>churn out fats. >>3. Foods high in fructose eg table sugar could be a bad as saturated >>fat and alcohol. >Note the COULD. I’m not disagreeing, but it’s one researcher’s theory.

Agreed. >>Fructose is SELECTIVELY shunted towards the liver and the formation of >>fats.   >Just like glucose.

OK.  That is not how I understood things to be. My understanding is that the liver deals with fructose in preference to glucose.  Perhaps there is a better way of expressing this but high blood glucose levels occur whereas high blood fructose levels don’t.   This could be accounted for by the slow absorption of fructose relative to glucose but personally I think there is another factor operating. IMHO the liver preferentially gets rid of fructose.  It seems to be what Zammit is saying.  I am interested in what other active researchers in the field are saying.   >It provides one of the building blocks for triglycerides ie >>fats.   >But most tg fat not from ingested fatty acids is made from excess >glucose in the liver.

The statement refers to fructose as ONE of the building blocks … >>Fructose also directly stimulates the liver to release >>triglycerides.

You don’t seem to be disagreeing with this statement. >Amongst other things. The beauty of fructose is that it only arrives >in a trickle.

When you use the word "beauty" I have to recognise that you have an opinion about fructose.   This is where our discussions are important. My opinion that while fructose has a low GI it isn’t necessarily safe for T2 diabetics is well known to any regular reader.  Here it appears you have taken a different position.  That is OK so long as we thrash out what we can regarding the truth of each and any of our assumptions.   To put the issues bluntly here is how I think we are polarized. Quentin: Fructose is more dangerous than glucose. Joe:     Fructose is less dangerous than glucose. If your opinion differs from the one stated please correct the statement. Perhaps you are playing devil’s advocate.  That’s cool. >>John Bantle, University of Minnesota. >>Two dozen healthy volunteers were fed a diet with 17% of calories as >>fructose and then a diet nearly devoid of fructose.  The effects were >>worse for men. They turned out to be more sensitive to fructose than >>women.   >He did this in Nov 1992, I believe. Why have we heard nothing much >since.

Oh.  There have been some regarding the benefits of fruit.  Fruit consumption seems to be beneficial for women but not for men.  What the real reason for this is I don’t know but it does fit with the idea that men are more sensitive to fructose than women. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>The order of sensitivity to fructose is rats, men and lastly women. >>Draw your own conclusions on that one.  <grin> >>The high fructose diet increased triglycerides by 32% in men and worse >>the liver spewed them out after meals when fat would normally be high. >>Put simply the after dinner fat spike damages the arteries. >>(As an aside, the average American diet has 40% calories from sugar >>and high fructose corn syrup. That means the average American diet has >>at least 20% of calories by fructose.  The Okinawans have a much lower >>fructose diet though reasonably high carb diet. Mostly this is because >>they eat vegetables fish, rice, noodles, tofu and much less sugar and >>fruit than Americans.) >>David Barker University of Southhampton >>Genetic susceptibility to Syndrome X varies though the genes >>responsible have yet to be tracked down. Undernourishment of the fetus >>and in early infancy can predispose people to Syndrome X later in >>life.

You will notice that the article address the issue of genetics but makes the point that choosing your mother’s diet is also significant. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>How much fructose are you getting? >>Teaspoon of sugar     2 grams >>Teaspoon of honey     2 grams >>Can of cola (330 ml) 15 grams >>Chocolate bar (100g) 25 grams >>Bowl of cereal        3 grams >>Serving of carrots    0.25 gram. >>Len Storlein >>Instead of struggling to reduce fat overall, switch to olive oil, >>marine fish oil. These suppress the liver’s release of triglycerides.   >But of course these are triglycerides themselves. >They must travel about in the bloodstream until they are either burnt >or stored.

Does that mean marine oils doesn’t suppress the liver’s release of triglycerides? >>Eating low GI foods is more controversial.  (Some foods get their low >>GI from fructose.   >Because it moves from the gut to the bloodstream so slowly?

And because the conversion of fructose to glucose is inefficient. The blood glucose tests pick up glucose not fructose. >Where the low GI is attributable to the slowly >>digestible starch amylose rather than amylopectin, low GI helps.)   >Allowing the slow transfer of glucose from the gut to the bloodstream. >>Best wishes, >>Hope this helps clarify some issues that have clearly worried some >>people.  For myself the take home message is cut the snacks. >>Eat regular meals. >Seems reasonable, but then there is good evidence that snacking or >many meals has advantages for some. >jl

– Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

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>HI Quentin… >Well that certainly sounds like me. >So are we also saying that letting the insulin do the work of >regulalting our blood sugar levels isn’t good either?  It seems that >diet is the only thing that really is important.  I suppose that is >the message that we have had drummed into us in the UK all our lives. >A sensible balanced diet with only a little meat and lots of veggies. >Try and get the majority of our calories from complex carbs! >Is there a direct link between the level of obesity and insulin >resistance and high triglycerides?

I believe so. The most important quality of diet is excess calories over expenditure over a long period, unless you are diabetic or on the way. jl

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HI Quentin… Well that certainly sounds like me. So are we also saying that letting the insulin do the work of regulalting our blood sugar levels isn’t good either?  It seems that diet is the only thing that really is important.  I suppose that is the message that we have had drummed into us in the UK all our lives. A sensible balanced diet with only a little meat and lots of veggies. Try and get the majority of our calories from complex carbs! Is there a direct link between the level of obesity and insulin resistance and high triglycerides? What about the plant estols(?) such as Benecol.. do they really work? Is there a diet sheet that lists foods good for syndrome x sufferers? Thanks for the repost. Martin.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> G’day G’day Folks, >   In a thread on glycemic index Joe asked if I could repost a summary > I made of an article in New Scientist.   Here it is, >  From time to time posters express surprise that their triglycerides >or blood pressure is high.  As if having insulin resistance and a >diagnosis of T2 diabetes isn’t enough there are these other issues to >deal with.  Well in one sense they are all part of the same syndrome. >It is called Syndrome X. >While it is a YMMV thing the three underlying features are >1. high triglycerides, >2. high blood pressure, >3. insulin resistance. >Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >The "New Scientist" article 1 Sept 2001 is worth the read if you can >find a copy.  It has some colour diagrams that make the concepts >expressed in the article even clearer. >What I’d like to do is present a summary of what is said in the >article. >There are moments when I have had to rethink my beliefs and times when >the writers confirm what I have read elsewhere and come to believe. >I have vigorously summarized the points of view. >They are not literal quotes. >Victor Zammit, head of cell biochemistry Hannah Research Institute. >High levels of dietary saturated fats are bad. >Under some circumstances the liver pours out saturated fats. >Grazing pattern eating is a likely culprit. >Insulin normally STOPS the liver from releasing fats escorted around >the blood stream as VLDL after a meal.  This is important because the >enzymes that would remove the fats are busy dealing with fats from the >meal.  If this doesn’t happen then follow on processes lead to >arterial blockages. >Zammit’s rat research shows the OFF switch fails when the diet >contains frequent high energy snacks.  Insulin now PROMOTES fat >release from the liver. >It is as though the wiring for the fat release switch has been >reversed. >That begins a vicious cycle. >High circulating fats make muscle cells insulin resistant. >More insulin is produced. >Eventually the adipose cells where fat gets stored get insulin >resistant as well.  The excess circulating fat kills off insulin >secreting pancreatic cells, insulin drops and that is how many of us >arrived at alt.support.diabetes or misc.health.diabetes >What is to be done about it? >Christina Koutsari and Adrianne Hardman, University of Loughborough. >Moderate daily exercise reduces circulating fats. >Zammit again. >1  Eat less often. Leave 4 or 5 hours between meals. >2  More alcohol than 2 glasses of wine per day causes the liver to >churn out fats. >3. Foods high in fructose eg table sugar could be a bad as saturated >fat and alcohol. >Fructose is SELECTIVELY shunted towards the liver and the formation of >fats.  It provides one of the building blocks for triglycerides ie >fats.  Fructose also directly stimulates the liver to release >triglycerides. >John Bantle, University of Minnesota. >Two dozen healthy volunteers were fed a diet with 17% of calories as >fructose and then a diet nearly devoid of fructose.  The effects were >worse for men. They turned out to be more sensitive to fructose than >women. >The order of sensitivity to fructose is rats, men and lastly women. >Draw your own conclusions on that one.  <grin> >The high fructose diet increased triglycerides by 32% in men and worse >the liver spewed them out after meals when fat would normally be high. >Put simply the after dinner fat spike damages the arteries. >(As an aside, the average American diet has 40% calories from sugar >and high fructose corn syrup. That means the average American diet has >at least 20% of calories by fructose.  The Okinawans have a much lower >fructose diet though reasonably high carb diet. Mostly this is because >they eat vegetables fish, rice, noodles, tofu and much less sugar and >fruit than Americans.) >David Barker University of Southhampton >Genetic susceptibility to Syndrome X varies though the genes >responsible have yet to be tracked down. Undernourishment of the fetus >and in early infancy can predispose people to Syndrome X later in >life. >How much fructose are you getting? >Teaspoon of sugar     2 grams >Teaspoon of honey     2 grams >Can of cola (330 ml) 15 grams >Chocolate bar (100g) 25 grams >Bowl of cereal        3 grams >Serving of carrots    0.25 gram. >Len Storlein >Instead of struggling to reduce fat overall, switch to olive oil, >marine fish oil. These suppress the liver’s release of triglycerides. >Eating low GI foods is more controversial.  (Some foods get their low >GI from fructose.  Where the low GI is attributable to the slowly >digestible starch amylose rather than amylopectin, low GI helps.) >Best wishes, >Hope this helps clarify some issues that have clearly worried some >people.  For myself the take home message is cut the snacks. >Eat regular meals. > — > Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / > New Zealand,       >#,#< [ >                     / / > "… and the blind dog was leading." > http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

>G’day G’day Folks, >  In a thread on glycemic index Joe asked if I could repost a summary >I made of an article in New Scientist.   Here it is, >  From time to time posters express surprise that their triglycerides >or blood pressure is high.  

They chose the wrong parents, eat too much, and don’t exercise enough. >As if having insulin resistance and a >diagnosis of T2 diabetes isn’t enough there are these other issues to >deal with.  Well in one sense they are all part of the same syndrome. >It is called Syndrome X.   >While it is a YMMV thing the three underlying features are >1. high triglycerides, >2. high blood pressure, >3. insulin resistance. >Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD.

See above, parents, food and work. >The "New Scientist" article 1 Sept 2001 is worth the read if you can >find a copy.  It has some colour diagrams that make the concepts >expressed in the article even clearer.

From your summary, it appears that this work has been pushed by Zammit for a decade or more. Many apparently disagree with him. >What I’d like to do is present a summary of what is said in the >article.   >There are moments when I have had to rethink my beliefs and times when >the writers confirm what I have read elsewhere and come to believe.   >I have vigorously summarized the points of view. >They are not literal quotes. >Victor Zammit, head of cell biochemistry Hannah Research Institute. >High levels of dietary saturated fats are bad. >Under some circumstances the liver pours out saturated fats. >Grazing pattern eating is a likely culprit.

As triglycerides are the method of longer term energy storage and a source of some energy requirements, it is reasonable that the liver shunts them around the place. Some are unavoidable in foods. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Insulin normally STOPS the liver from releasing fats escorted around >the blood stream as VLDL after a meal.  This is important because the >enzymes that would remove the fats are busy dealing with fats from the >meal.  If this doesn’t happen then follow on processes lead to >arterial blockages. >Zammit’s rat research shows the OFF switch fails when the diet >contains frequent high energy snacks.  Insulin now PROMOTES fat >release from the liver.   >It is as though the wiring for the fat release switch has been >reversed. >That begins a vicious cycle.   >High circulating fats make muscle cells insulin resistant. >More insulin is produced. >Eventually the adipose cells where fat gets stored get insulin >resistant as well.  The excess circulating fat kills off insulin >secreting pancreatic cells, insulin drops and that is how many of us >arrived at alt.support.diabetes or misc.health.diabetes

Nice theory, but who agrees with it? >What is to be done about it? >Christina Koutsari and Adrianne Hardman, University of Loughborough. >Moderate daily exercise reduces circulating fats. >Zammit again. >1  Eat less often. Leave 4 or 5 hours between meals. >2  More alcohol than 2 glasses of wine per day causes the liver to >churn out fats. >3. Foods high in fructose eg table sugar could be a bad as saturated >fat and alcohol.

Note the COULD. I’m not disagreeing, but it’s one researcher’s theory. >Fructose is SELECTIVELY shunted towards the liver and the formation of >fats.  

Just like glucose. >It provides one of the building blocks for triglycerides ie >fats.  

But most tg fat not from ingested fatty acids is made from excess glucose in the liver. >Fructose also directly stimulates the liver to release >triglycerides.

Amongst other things. The beauty of fructose is that it only arrives in a trickle. >John Bantle, University of Minnesota. >Two dozen healthy volunteers were fed a diet with 17% of calories as >fructose and then a diet nearly devoid of fructose.  The effects were >worse for men. They turned out to be more sensitive to fructose than >women.  

He did this in Nov 1992, I believe. Why have we heard nothing much since. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The order of sensitivity to fructose is rats, men and lastly women. >Draw your own conclusions on that one.  <grin> >The high fructose diet increased triglycerides by 32% in men and worse >the liver spewed them out after meals when fat would normally be high. >Put simply the after dinner fat spike damages the arteries. >(As an aside, the average American diet has 40% calories from sugar >and high fructose corn syrup. That means the average American diet has >at least 20% of calories by fructose.  The Okinawans have a much lower >fructose diet though reasonably high carb diet. Mostly this is because >they eat vegetables fish, rice, noodles, tofu and much less sugar and >fruit than Americans.) >David Barker University of Southhampton >Genetic susceptibility to Syndrome X varies though the genes >responsible have yet to be tracked down. Undernourishment of the fetus >and in early infancy can predispose people to Syndrome X later in >life. >How much fructose are you getting? >Teaspoon of sugar     2 grams >Teaspoon of honey     2 grams >Can of cola (330 ml) 15 grams >Chocolate bar (100g) 25 grams >Bowl of cereal        3 grams >Serving of carrots    0.25 gram. >Len Storlein >Instead of struggling to reduce fat overall, switch to olive oil, >marine fish oil. These suppress the liver’s release of triglycerides.  

But of course these are triglycerides themselves. They must travel about in the bloodstream until they are either burnt or stored. >Eating low GI foods is more controversial.  (Some foods get their low >GI from fructose.  

Because it moves from the gut to the bloodstream so slowly? >Where the low GI is attributable to the slowly >digestible starch amylose rather than amylopectin, low GI helps.)  

Allowing the slow transfer of glucose from the gut to the bloodstream. >Best wishes, >Hope this helps clarify some issues that have clearly worried some >people.  For myself the take home message is cut the snacks. >Eat regular meals.

Seems reasonable, but then there is good evidence that snacking or many meals has advantages for some. jl

Response:

G’day G’day Folks,   In a thread on glycemic index Joe asked if I could repost a summary I made of an article in New Scientist.   Here it is, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >  From time to time posters express surprise that their triglycerides >or blood pressure is high.  As if having insulin resistance and a >diagnosis of T2 diabetes isn’t enough there are these other issues to >deal with.  Well in one sense they are all part of the same syndrome. >It is called Syndrome X.   >While it is a YMMV thing the three underlying features are >1. high triglycerides, >2. high blood pressure, >3. insulin resistance. >Syndrome X is the silent precursor of T2 diabetes and CHD. >The "New Scientist" article 1 Sept 2001 is worth the read if you can >find a copy.  It has some colour diagrams that make the concepts >expressed in the article even clearer. >What I’d like to do is present a summary of what is said in the >article.   >There are moments when I have had to rethink my beliefs and times when >the writers confirm what I have read elsewhere and come to believe.   >I have vigorously summarized the points of view. >They are not literal quotes. >Victor Zammit, head of cell biochemistry Hannah Research Institute. >High levels of dietary saturated fats are bad. >Under some circumstances the liver pours out saturated fats. >Grazing pattern eating is a likely culprit. >Insulin normally STOPS the liver from releasing fats escorted around >the blood stream as VLDL after a meal.  This is important because the >enzymes that would remove the fats are busy dealing with fats from the >meal.  If this doesn’t happen then follow on processes lead to >arterial blockages. >Zammit’s rat research shows the OFF switch fails when the diet >contains frequent high energy snacks.  Insulin now PROMOTES fat >release from the liver.   >It is as though the wiring for the fat release switch has been >reversed. >That begins a vicious cycle.   >High circulating fats make muscle cells insulin resistant. >More insulin is produced. >Eventually the adipose cells where fat gets stored get insulin >resistant as well.  The excess circulating fat kills off insulin >secreting pancreatic cells, insulin drops and that is how many of us >arrived at alt.support.diabetes or misc.health.diabetes >What is to be done about it? >Christina Koutsari and Adrianne Hardman, University of Loughborough. >Moderate daily exercise reduces circulating fats. >Zammit again. >1  Eat less often. Leave 4 or 5 hours between meals. >2  More alcohol than 2 glasses of wine per day causes the liver to >churn out fats. >3. Foods high in fructose eg table sugar could be a bad as saturated >fat and alcohol. >Fructose is SELECTIVELY shunted towards the liver and the formation of >fats.  It provides one of the building blocks for triglycerides ie >fats.  Fructose also directly stimulates the liver to release >triglycerides. >John Bantle, University of Minnesota. >Two dozen healthy volunteers were fed a diet with 17% of calories as >fructose and then a diet nearly devoid of fructose.  The effects were >worse for men. They turned out to be more sensitive to fructose than >women.   >The order of sensitivity to fructose is rats, men and lastly women. >Draw your own conclusions on that one.  <grin> >The high fructose diet increased triglycerides by 32% in men and worse >the liver spewed them out after meals when fat would normally be high. >Put simply the after dinner fat spike damages the arteries. >(As an aside, the average American diet has 40% calories from sugar >and high fructose corn syrup. That means the average American diet has >at least 20% of calories by fructose.  The Okinawans have a much lower >fructose diet though reasonably high carb diet. Mostly this is because >they eat vegetables fish, rice, noodles, tofu and much less sugar and >fruit than Americans.) >David Barker University of Southhampton >Genetic susceptibility to Syndrome X varies though the genes >responsible have yet to be tracked down. Undernourishment of the fetus >and in early infancy can predispose people to Syndrome X later in >life. >How much fructose are you getting? >Teaspoon of sugar     2 grams >Teaspoon of honey     2 grams >Can of cola (330 ml) 15 grams >Chocolate bar (100g) 25 grams >Bowl of cereal        3 grams >Serving of carrots    0.25 gram. >Len Storlein >Instead of struggling to reduce fat overall, switch to olive oil, >marine fish oil. These suppress the liver’s release of triglycerides. >Eating low GI foods is more controversial.  (Some foods get their low >GI from fructose.  Where the low GI is attributable to the slowly >digestible starch amylose rather than amylopectin, low GI helps.)   >Best wishes, >Hope this helps clarify some issues that have clearly worried some >people.  For myself the take home message is cut the snacks. >Eat regular meals.

– Quentin Grady       ^  ^  / New Zealand,       >#,#< [                     / /     "… and the blind dog was leading." http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/quentin

Response:

You can see from some of the replies why I’m so careful. If you ever have any doubts a signed letter from an attorneys your best protection. People it seems are very worried about getting sued and will act accordingly. Best for your daughter Lane

Response:

Sure and the first time you leave that’s when the child has the "LIFE THREATENING" problem. Your idea is extremely dangerous and is part of the asthmatics problem. Albuterol is not a dangerous drug and maybe a class on drugs would be in order. Don’t let the asthmatic die because some children can’t behave themselves. This is why laws and education have to be mandated. Someone always thinks they have a good reason to lock away a life saving med when seconds are extremely important. Lane

Response:

> well,kids DO do things that us parents think "our kids" would never > do…but im not saying that your kid does..im just saying that some > parents would be surprised at what thier little angels do when they are > away (mine included) > But..just for the record..It does not state in the scouters handbook > anything about the meds having to be locked up,and scouting is a > national orginazation,not a state, so the scouters law is the same in > every state. I wouldnt worry too much about it,if her leader is on your > side and knows about your daughters  condition. > Scouting is for the kids and they certainly wouldnt want to put any > child in jepardy,their policies are for the protection of all the kids. > I dont suspect they will give you any grief over it.

Lynn,  I know that my kids will do things that they shouldn’t and things that may shock me at some point.  But I also know that my daughter would not abuse her medication or allow others to do so.  She is very med/asthma aware.  We talked about this in the car on the way to the camp bus today, and she was shocked that anyone could think she might mis-use her medication this way, or that anyone would.  In her own words, "if someone gives their meds to others or doesn’t use them properly then their parents and Dr haven’t done a very good job of education them.  It’s also very unfair to judge other people by a small few’s stupid behavior".

Response:

>in charge of my sons group and then put him (the adult) >in charge of that inhler and epi pen

I would only hope that if a child has an asthma attack they are able to locate the one who is carrying them around or in charge of the key where they are locked up. If it was my child I would sure fight to have him have his inhaler with him and not try to find the one with the inhaler.

Response:

well,kids DO do things that us parents think "our kids" would never do…but im not saying that your kid does..im just saying that some parents would be surprised at what thier little angels do when they are away (mine included) But..just for the record..It does not state in the scouters handbook anything about the meds having to be locked up,and scouting is a national orginazation,not a state, so the scouters law is the same in every state. I wouldnt worry too much about it,if her leader is on your side and knows about your daughters  condition. Scouting is for the kids and they certainly wouldnt want to put any child in jepardy,their policies are for the protection of all the kids. I dont suspect they will give you any grief over it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Speaking as a (cub) scout master and mother of cub scouts and boy > scouts. > I have seen first hand why young children shouldnt be allowed to carry > around inhalers. Children,when around other peers like to "show off" so > to speak. They may get the inhaler out and show and tell kinda thing. > With my son…his buddies liked to use it (dont ask me why) maybe it > produced some kind of "high" or something. So having him carry it around > was sometimes more dangerous than not. > As a scout master…i do know the laws of scouting and with cub scout > and girl scout age children (6 to 11) they are never to be > hiking,swimming,fishing,sleeping,ect,ect without at least 2 adults > present ,so when i had to send my son to camp i always educated the > adult supervisor in charge of my sons group and then put him (the adult) > in charge of that inhler and epi pen. > It always worked out great and i didnt have to worry about other kids > using his meds or him losing it.

Unlike the children you refer to, my duaghter knows the proper use of her inhaler.  She would not show off with it, nor would she allow others to use it.  She won’t even let me use her inhaler (same rx) or use mine since the correct name is not on it.  She is "in control" of her emergency meds 24/7 any other time.  "In the care of an adult" at camp means that the nurse locks it in the first aid box, and the nurse is the only one with the key. The time it would take to talk to the leader, find the nurse, get her to unlock the box, and get the inhaler out may be more time than is available.

Response:

Speaking as a (cub) scout master and mother of cub scouts and boy scouts. I have seen first hand why young children shouldnt be allowed to carry around inhalers. Children,when around other peers like to "show off" so to speak. They may get the inhaler out and show and tell kinda thing. With my son…his buddies liked to use it (dont ask me why) maybe it produced some kind of "high" or something. So having him carry it around was sometimes more dangerous than not. As a scout master…i do know the laws of scouting and with cub scout and girl scout age children (6 to 11) they are never to be hiking,swimming,fishing,sleeping,ect,ect without at least 2 adults present ,so when i had to send my son to camp i always educated the adult supervisor in charge of my sons group and then put him (the adult) in charge of that inhler and epi pen. It always worked out great and i didnt have to worry about other kids using his meds or him losing it.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I would strongly recommend that you contact an attorney. The people at the > camp need to be informed as to what’s legal and what’s not thru an > attorney > not a doctor. This could be extremely serious if she is out on a hike and > her meds are back at camp. > Lane > She’s aware of this and agrees that she need to keep her inhaler on her at > all times.  She wouldn’t give it up, even if it meant not attending camp. > So far we’ve had no problems.  Her direct group leader is one of her troop > leaders, who is also asthmatic and agreed with us.  She has said that as > long as the camp director doesn’t directly ask, she won’t say anything and > DD will carry her inhaler.  She also said that when they do the overnight > tomorrow night she’ll just have DD keep her night and morning meds in her > backpack and take them herself. At almost 11 DD is more than capable of > this, and it makes things easier for everyone. > I appreciate the vehemence of all your comments, and second them whole > heartedly.  My other child has a form of autism, so between the 2 kids I’ve > learned that sitting back on the sidelines and leaving things to "the people > in charge" is often the worst thing you can do.  I don’t hesitate to jump > right in and stand up for my kids.  I’m not going to contact a lawyer until > there’s something to contact them about, however; i.e. if they insist that > the inhaler be taken from her and locked away.  Thanks for the links as > well, Ellis.  I was able to find some basic info, and a couple of > particulars in other states, but these were great. > Lesa

  I have cared for kids with asthma for more years than I care to remember, and have seen everything about their treatment change except the attitude of the schools toward their medications. The schools have a reason to be wary, in this litigious society, and it has become no better in recent years now that there is a zero tolerance for "drugs" on school property. I have always hoped that there would be a teacher who would want to look the other way, and if that were not the case I have recommended that the inhaler be used in the bathroom stall. The latter approach has worked, but I have always wished that I didn’t have to tell youngsters that it was perfectly appropriate for them to break rules.   This school policy must be changed, but you are not going to be able to get the Law to do it. Policies are iterated by School Boards, which are elected by us and are, in theory at least, sensitive to the desires of the community. I think an approach to the School Board is the only way you will be able to do anything positive. This was my experience when I found that several of my patients were having more trouble in the gymnasium, even when not exercising. They were allergic to dogs; the school had allowed a dog-training course to use that facility. An approach to the Principal did nothing. An approach to several School Board members led to prompt removal of the dogs.   Again, a private organization like the scouts can simply point out that there is no need and no right to use their facilities if one does not care to abide by their rules. We may have vehement feelings; it may be that it should not be thus, but it is, and there are Supreme Court decisions to back it. The local Law is not going to question their dicta.    Larry

Response:

I would strongly recommend that you contact an attorney. The people at the camp need to be informed as to what’s legal and what’s not thru an attorney not a doctor. This could be extremely serious if she is out on a hike and her meds are back at camp. Lane

Response:

> I would strongly recommend that you contact an attorney. The people at the > camp need to be informed as to what’s legal and what’s not thru an attorney > not a doctor. This could be extremely serious if she is out on a hike and > her meds are back at camp. > Lane

She’s aware of this and agrees that she need to keep her inhaler on her at all times.  She wouldn’t give it up, even if it meant not attending camp. So far we’ve had no problems.  Her direct group leader is one of her troop leaders, who is also asthmatic and agreed with us.  She has said that as long as the camp director doesn’t directly ask, she won’t say anything and DD will carry her inhaler.  She also said that when they do the overnight tomorrow night she’ll just have DD keep her night and morning meds in her backpack and take them herself. At almost 11 DD is more than capable of this, and it makes things easier for everyone. I appreciate the vehemence of all your comments, and second them whole heartedly.  My other child has a form of autism, so between the 2 kids I’ve learned that sitting back on the sidelines and leaving things to "the people in charge" is often the worst thing you can do.  I don’t hesitate to jump right in and stand up for my kids.  I’m not going to contact a lawyer until there’s something to contact them about, however; i.e. if they insist that the inhaler be taken from her and locked away.  Thanks for the links as well, Ellis.  I was able to find some basic info, and a couple of particulars in other states, but these were great. Lesa

Response:

No the laws should be very clear about this sort of emergency meds as it is with other emergency medications.  Esp if they lock them up and take you away from the location where the med is being kept.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are laws protecting people to have emergency medications withing > their > immediate reach.  I went through this with the school system and a > basketball league for another child not my own.  UM MOM Susan > I know that there are laws which state that an individual cannot be > prevented or blocked from their emergency meds.  Whether or not having an > emergency med in the care of the "first aid person" rather than on the > individual’s person is "blocking" is a pretty grey area. > If I have to battle them on this one I will, and do so very vehemently if > necessary (my kids don’t call me Queen Mega Bitch for nothing).  I was just > hoping that someone could give me more details on their experiences with > putting these laws into practice.

Response:

> There are laws protecting people to have emergency medications withing their > immediate reach.  I went through this with the school system and a > basketball league for another child not my own.  UM MOM Susan

I know that there are laws which state that an individual cannot be prevented or blocked from their emergency meds.  Whether or not having an emergency med in the care of the "first aid person" rather than on the individual’s person is "blocking" is a pretty grey area. If I have to battle them on this one I will, and do so very vehemently if necessary (my kids don’t call me Queen Mega Bitch for nothing).  I was just hoping that someone could give me more details on their experiences with putting these laws into practice.

Response:

No, to be honest it was the University in Tampa, forget the name, and public parks systems.  But you are right about how the laws work, that I too don’t know for sure.  That is why I suggested the Attorney general in the area.  I am sure that one of the lawyers there can advice of the laws of the state. UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are laws protecting people to have emergency medications withing their > immediate reach.  I went through this with the school system and a > basketball league for another child not my own.  UM MOM Susan > That is precisely why I said "As far as the laws are concerned I would > expect that the Girl Scout camp would be treated as a private organization > rather than a public accommodation; this would differentiate it from a > public school, for instance." Was the basketball league sponsored by the > school system? >       Lp

Response:

> There are laws protecting people to have emergency medications withing their > immediate reach.  I went through this with the school system and a > basketball league for another child not my own.  UM MOM Susan

That is precisely why I said "As far as the laws are concerned I would expect that the Girl Scout camp would be treated as a private organization rather than a public accommodation; this would differentiate it from a public school, for instance." Was the basketball league sponsored by the school system?       Lp

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I know that many of you here are very familiar with laws concerning > medications for asthma.  I’m in the midst of a battle with our local Girl > Scout council concerning this, and would appreciate input. > My daughter is signed up for GS day camp  I received notice that the > council’s policy is that all medication, including emergency meds such as > ventolin and epi-pens, are kept locked up in the first aid box.  I have > informed them that my daughter will carry her ventolin inhaler with her, and > has been told not to turn it over to them but to tell them to call me if > they ask her to do so. > The council in insisting that for safety reasons they need to keep all > medications locked up.  I’ve talked to them about the lack of safety of her > needing her inhaler and having to contact her group leader, then find the > first aid person to unlock it before she can get to it.  I’ve stressed how > unsafe this is, especially if they’re off hiking somewhere when she needs > it.  The Dr has even called them.

Here are some related links: http://reason.com/0204/fe.cs.asthma.shtml Asthma Attack           April 2002 When "zero tolerance" collides with children

Question:

Ok… I had to go back to my doctor.  It was getting to the rediculous stage where I couldn’t breathe too good even with preventer/reliever treatment. Sinus infection, chest infection, both contributing to "uncontrolled asthma". I’m taking symbicort 200/6 (comination of pulmicort and oxis), bricanyl for reliever, pseudoephedrine to dry the sinuses, erythromycin for the chest/sinus, paracetemol for unbelievable pain in my throat and head… And I’m not doing a lot better.  I’m having times where I cannot breathe, where my chest feels like it’s only moving 2mm when I breathe in, and even at the good times I have shocking low lung capacity… coughing all day and most of the night (ie very very tired)… and no appetite. Until recently I had a good diet, I was exercising regularly and life was pretty good.  Now I can’t eat and so can’t get the balanced diet, can’t exercise, and can’t sleep. I am loathe to go back to my doctor as it is costing so much… but I’ve been like this for 3 weeks now. Any suggestions?

Response:

>Sinus infection, chest infection, both contributing to "uncontrolled >asthma".

Bacteria , virus’ use iron to survive .. The immune system uses iron as the very basis of its work. When the body is invaded the immune system sequesters/removes iron out of the blood and locks it away so the invader cannot access it and survive. It its weakened state the pathogen/invader can be attacked and killed by the t-cells/white cells. When there is too much iron in the body the body cannot lock the iron away and when it tries the iron spills back out where the pathogen can still access it. This spilled iron is called ‘free’ iron / NTBI – non protein bound iron/ NPBI – no protein bound iron which forms the LIP – labile iron pool. >I’m taking symbicort 200/6 (comination of pulmicort and oxis), bricanyl for >reliever, pseudoephedrine to dry the sinuses, erythromycin for the >chest/sinus, paracetemol for unbelievable pain in my throat and head…

Erythromycin binds up iron .. the same as the immune system. This is taken right from the iron overload list .. and this member speaks to the result or added side effect of removal of the elevated iron in their body. Beneficial Effect I don’t know if it is a coincidence, but  after several phlebs, my asthma and allergy symptoms became better and have  nearly cleared up.   I was taking proventil, intal, vancenase, theophylline and beclovent daily.  I no longer take theophylline, proventil and have cut back on the rest 90%.  I have not had an attack, can smell food, do not have cotton mouth during the night for the first time in years and my wife says that I NO LONGER SNORE.  It’s probably a coincidence, but I like to think of it as a possible positive side affect. >I am loathe to go back to my doctor as it is costing so much… but I’ve >been like this for 3 weeks now. >Any suggestions?

Well you could always tell your doctor you got a phone call and were told your immediate family told you you are to be tested for elevated iron levels in the body .. which is known to kill you in the long run .. which is preceded by a long protracted horrible death .. and that you hope to god that HE … didn’t miss it all this time .. and has been causing all this grief in YOU because of HIS inability to do his job. But that is just thinking out loud .. Who loves ya. Tom Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

Tom, you are off the mark badly here.  You know how I feel about this.  Iron is needed for survival.  As one who has mal absorption problems because of cd, I get tested constantly.  Everyone needs Iron in them or the result is anemia.  Iron does not kill white cells or t-cells for if that was the case when my white cells were over a million and I needed to be transfused my iron would have prevented this.  Too much Iron like anything else is not good for anyone.  But what you are saying here is, sorry, Bull.  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Sinus infection, chest infection, both contributing to "uncontrolled >asthma". > Bacteria , virus’ use iron to survive .. > The immune system uses iron as the very basis of its work. > When the body is invaded the immune system sequesters/removes iron out of the > blood and locks it away so the invader cannot access it and survive. > It its weakened state the pathogen/invader can be attacked and killed by the > t-cells/white cells. > When there is too much iron in the body the body cannot lock the iron away and > when it tries the iron spills back out where the pathogen can still access it. > This spilled iron is called ‘free’ iron / NTBI – non protein bound iron/ NPBI – > no protein bound iron which forms the LIP – labile iron pool. >I’m taking symbicort 200/6 (comination of pulmicort and oxis), bricanyl for >reliever, pseudoephedrine to dry the sinuses, erythromycin for the >chest/sinus, paracetemol for unbelievable pain in my throat and head… > Erythromycin binds up iron .. the same as the immune system. > This is taken right from the iron overload list .. and this member speaks to > the result or added side effect of removal of the elevated iron in their body. > Beneficial Effect > I don’t know if it is a coincidence, but  after several phlebs, my asthma > and allergy symptoms became better and have  nearly cleared up. > I was taking proventil, intal, vancenase, theophylline and > beclovent daily.  I no longer take theophylline, proventil and have cut > back on the rest 90%.  I have not had an attack, can smell food, do not have > cotton mouth during the night for the first time in years and my wife says > that I NO LONGER SNORE.  It’s probably a coincidence, but I like to think of > it as a possible positive side affect. >I am loathe to go back to my doctor as it is costing so much… but I’ve >been like this for 3 weeks now. >Any suggestions? > Well you could always tell your doctor you got a phone call and were told your > immediate family told you you are to be tested for elevated iron levels in the > body .. which is known to kill you in the long run .. which is preceded by a > long protracted horrible death .. and that you hope to god that HE … didn’t > miss it all this time .. and has been causing all this grief in YOU because of > HIS inability to do his job. > But that is just thinking out loud .. > Who loves ya. > Tom > Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman > Moses was a mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

Response:

>Tom, you are off the mark badly here.  You know how I feel about this.  Iron >is needed for survival.

Yep ..  >As one who has mal absorption problems because of >cd, I get tested constantly.

You have YET to post the results of your serum transferrin and ferritin tests .. so I will assume your doctor does the ‘general test of your blood’ and thusly any ‘anemia’ you ’say’ you have .. is strictly from your doctors’ .. viewpoint .. with blinders on .  >Everyone needs Iron in them or the result is >anemia.

The chance of anyone especially a man actually being ‘iron deficient’ .. is very small .. UNLESS one is bleeding internally or has as you say .. a malabsorption problem. And as articles previously forwarded .. vitamin C seems to be an alternative to iron .. as it frees up the iron in the body which the body seems not to be able to access. As in the cases where there is KNOWN iron on board .. and iron infusion does not work. Sickle cell and kidney dialysis patients. Anemia is not always able to be treated with iron .. ? It simply does not respond ..? H pylori infection .. and gingivitis BOTH allow one to ‘appear’ to be iron deficent but the anemia is one of .. ‘anemia of chronic disease’ .. which is the immune system locking the iron away from the invader. Vitamin E deficiency causes ‘anemia’ as does many other deficiencies APPEAR as ‘anemia’ and unless your doctor ‘goes the extra mile’ .. his opinion is .. worthless. Iron supplements / treatment have been known to induce .. a ‘hastened death’ in aids patients DUE TO the doctors giving iron to people who are in the throes of .. anemia of chronic disease and the iron fed to them .. kills them DUE TO the pathogen NOW being able to access the iron which WAS .. locked away. >Iron does not kill white cells or t-cells for if that was the case >when my white cells were over a million and I needed to be transfused my >iron would have prevented this.

Iron does not kill T-cells/ white cells .. it just adds more food for the enemy .. and the white blood cells cannot mount an effective attack against an army / invader which outnumbers them. >Too much Iron like anything else is not >good for anyone.  But what you are saying here is, sorry, Bull.  UM MOM >Susan

I disagree .. Oct;28(10):930-6   Lower numbers of erythrocytes and lower levels of hemoglobin in periodontitispatients compared to control subjects.    Hutter JW, Velden Uv U, Varoufaki A, Huffels RA, Hoek FJ, Loos BG       Department of Periodontology, Academic Center for Dentistry Amsterdam   (ACTA); Department of Clinical Chemistry, Academic Medical Center   (AMC), Amsterdam, The Netherlands.      [Medline record in process]      BACKGROUND: Anemia of chronic disease (ACD) is defined as the anemia   occurring in chronic infections and inflammatory conditions, that is   not due to marrow deficiencies or other diseases and in the presence   of adequate iron stores and vitamins. The purpose of the present study   was to investigate whether periodontitis patients show signs of   anemia. METHOD: 39 patients with severe periodontitis, 71 patients   with moderate periodontitis and 42 controls, all with good general   health, participated in this study. The mean age of all groups was 42   years. Several red blood cell parameters were determined from   peripheral blood samples. RESULTS: Overall data analysis indicated   that periodontitis patients have a lower hematocrit, lower numbers of   erythrocytes, lower hemoglobin levels and higher erythrocyte   sedimentation rates. These results were adjusted for the following   possible confounders: gender, age, smoking, ethnicity and level of   education. Further, more periodontitis patients (23%) than controls   (7%), had hemoglobin levels below the normal reference range.   CONCLUSIONS: The present study provides further evidence that   periodontitis has systemic effects and that periodontitis may tend   towards anemia. This phenomenon may be explained by a depressed   erythropoiesis.      PMID: 11686811, UI: 21543364     pylori in the oral cavity: high prevalence and great DNAdiversity.    Song Q, Spahr A, Schmid RM, Adler G, Bode G       Department of Internal Medicine I, University of Ulm, Germany.      To test the hypothesis that Helicobacter pylori may be transmitted by   the oral-oral route, we applied nested PCR and DNA sequencing to   detect and analyze H. pylori DNA in the oral cavity of 20 adult   patients undergoing endoscopy. Dental plaques of molars, premolars,   and incisors and saliva were collected. Additional paraffin-embedded   gastric biopsies were analyzed in four patients. Two sets of highly   sensitive and specific primers, EHC-U/EHC-L and ET5-U/ET-5L directed   to a 860-bp fragment of H. pylori DNA, were used in the nested PCR.   Eight patients had an active infection in the stomach determined with   the [13C]urea breath test and the other 12 were negative. Nested PCR   showed that all 20 subjects (100%) were positive for H. pylori in the   oral cavity. DNA sequencing demonstrated that all tested PCR products   of the expected size from the oral samples have more than 97% identity   with that from H. pylori type strain ATCC 43629. However, sequences   differed in oral samples from different subjects as well as between   different oral locations and gastric biopsies within the same   individuals. In conclusion, the oral cavity may be a permanent   reservoir for H. pylori and can harbor multiple H. pylori strains at   the same time.      PMID: 11215732, UI: 21083431     bacteria/anemia/children      Scand J Gastroenterol 2001 Jul;36(7):701-5   Helicobacter pylori and iron deficiency anaemia in children.    Ashorn M, Ruuska T, Makipernaa A       Dept. of Pediatrics, Tampere University Hospital, BACKGROUND: Both iron deficiency anaemia and Helicobacter pylori   infection are rare in developed countries. A possible connection has   been suggested between these two diseases and our aim was to define   the clinical picture and to study the effect of bacterial eradication   in H. pylori colonized children with severe anaemia. METHODS: Eight   children with iron deficiency anaemia refractory to iron   supplementation were examined with gastroscopy because of suspicion of   H. pylori infection. Anaemia was treated with oral ferrous sulphate.   Two patients needed blood transfusions. Eradication therapy was given   either with combination of colloidal bismuth subcitrate and   metronidazole or with omeprazole, clarithromycin and amoxycillin.   Eradication was confirmed by urea breath test 4 weeks post-treatment.   RESULTS: H. pylori infection was confirmed histologically and   microbiologically in all children, who also presented with chronic,   active gastritis. Bacteria were successfully eradicated in 7/8   patients. Correction of haemoglobin values was observed   post-treatment, iron stores still being deficient at control in 4/8   children. CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest that H. pylori might have a   role in causing iron deficiency anaemia in school-age children.   Screening for H. pylori should be extended to cover those patients   with other clinical manifestations than symptoms from gastrointestinal   tract.      PMID: 11444468, UI: 21337369 Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman Moses was a mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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Tom I have posted this before but I will again. Iron and total iron binding capacity Iron total 18 Low Iron binding capacity 536 high %saturation 3 low Is this all that you are needing to see?  UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Tom, you are off the mark badly here.  You know how I feel about this. Iron >is needed for survival. > Yep .. >  >As one who has mal absorption problems because of >cd, I get tested constantly. > You have YET to post the results of your serum transferrin and ferritin tests > .. so I will assume your doctor does the ‘general test of your blood’ and > thusly any ‘anemia’ you ’say’ you have .. is strictly from your doctors’ .. > viewpoint .. with blinders on . >  >Everyone needs Iron in them or the result is >anemia. > The chance of anyone especially a man actually being ‘iron deficient’ .. is > very small .. UNLESS one is bleeding internally or has as you say .. a > malabsorption problem. > And as articles previously forwarded .. vitamin C seems to be an alternative to > iron .. as it frees up the iron in the body which the body seems not to be able > to access. > As in the cases where there is KNOWN iron on board .. and iron infusion does > not work. > Sickle cell and kidney dialysis patients. > Anemia is not always able to be treated with iron .. ? > It simply does not respond ..? > H pylori infection .. and gingivitis BOTH allow one to ‘appear’ to be iron > deficent but the anemia is one of .. ‘anemia of chronic disease’ .. which is > the immune system locking the iron away from the invader. > Vitamin E deficiency causes ‘anemia’ as does many other deficiencies APPEAR as > ‘anemia’ and unless your doctor ‘goes the extra mile’ .. his opinion is .. > worthless. > Iron supplements / treatment have been known to induce .. a ‘hastened death’ in > aids patients DUE TO the doctors giving iron to people who are in the throes of > .. anemia of chronic disease and the iron fed to them .. kills them DUE TO the > pathogen NOW being able to access the iron which WAS .. locked away. >Iron does not kill white cells or t-cells for if that was the case >when my white cells were over a million and I needed to be transfused my >iron would have prevented this. > Iron does not kill T-cells/ white cells .. it just adds more food for the enemy > .. and the white blood cells cannot mount an effective attack against an army / > invader which outnumbers them. >Too much Iron like anything else is not >good for anyone.  But what you are saying here is, sorry, Bull.  UM MOM >Susan > I disagree .. 2001 > Oct;28(10):930-6   Lower numbers of erythrocytes and lower levels of hemoglobin > in periodontitispatients compared to control subjects.    Hutter JW, Velden Uv > U, Varoufaki A, Huffels RA, Hoek FJ, Loos BG       Department of > Periodontology, Academic Center for Dentistry Amsterdam   (ACTA); Department of > Clinical Chemistry, Academic Medical Center   (AMC), Amsterdam, The > Netherlands.      [Medline record in process]      BACKGROUND: Anemia of > chronic disease (ACD) is defined as the anemia   occurring in chronic > infections and inflammatory conditions, that is   not due to marrow > deficiencies or other diseases and in the presence   of adequate iron stores > and vitamins. The purpose of the present study   was to investigate whether > periodontitis patients show signs of   anemia. METHOD: 39 patients with severe > periodontitis, 71 patients   with moderate periodontitis and 42 controls, all > with good general   health, participated in this study. The mean age of all > groups was 42   years. Several red blood cell parameters were determined from > peripheral blood samples. RESULTS: Overall data analysis indicated   that > periodontitis patients have a lower hematocrit, lower numbers of > erythrocytes, lower hemoglobin levels and higher erythrocyte sedimentation > rates. These results were adjusted for the following   possible confounders: > gender, age, smoking, ethnicity and level of   education. Further, more > periodontitis patients (23%) than controls   (7%), had hemoglobin levels below > the normal reference range.   CONCLUSIONS: The present study provides further > evidence that   periodontitis has systemic effects and that periodontitis may > tend   towards anemia. This phenomenon may be explained by a depressed > erythropoiesis.      PMID: 11686811, UI: 21543364 Helicobacter > pylori in the oral cavity: high prevalence and great DNAdiversity.    Song Q, > Spahr A, Schmid RM, Adler G, Bode G       Department of Internal Medicine I, > University of Ulm, Germany.      To test the hypothesis that Helicobacter > pylori may be transmitted by   the oral-oral route, we applied nested PCR and > DNA sequencing to   detect and analyze H. pylori DNA in the oral cavity of 20 > adult   patients undergoing endoscopy. Dental plaques of molars, premolars, > and incisors and saliva were collected. Additional paraffin-embedded gastric > biopsies were analyzed in four patients. Two sets of highly   sensitive and > specific primers, EHC-U/EHC-L and ET5-U/ET-5L directed   to a 860-bp fragment > of H. pylori DNA, were used in the nested PCR.   Eight patients had an active > infection in the stomach determined with   the [13C]urea breath test and the > other 12 were negative. Nested PCR   showed that all 20 subjects (100%) were > positive for H. pylori in the   oral cavity. DNA sequencing demonstrated that > all tested PCR products   of the expected size from the oral samples have more > than 97% identity   with that from H. pylori type strain ATCC 43629. However, > sequences   differed in oral samples from different subjects as well as between >   different oral locations and gastric biopsies within the same individuals. > In conclusion, the oral cavity may be a permanent   reservoir for H. pylori and > can harbor multiple H. pylori strains at   the same time.      PMID: 11215732, > UI: 21083431 > bacteria/anemia/children      Scand J Gastroenterol 2001 Jul;36(7):701-5 > Helicobacter pylori and iron deficiency anaemia in children.    Ashorn M, > Ruuska T, Makipernaa A       Dept. of Pediatrics, Tampere University Hospital, > BACKGROUND: Both iron deficiency anaemia and Helicobacter pylori infection > are rare in developed countries. A possible connection has   been suggested > between these two diseases and our aim was to define   the clinical picture and > to study the effect of bacterial eradication   in H. pylori colonized children > with severe anaemia. METHODS: Eight   children with iron deficiency anaemia > refractory to iron   supplementation were examined with gastroscopy because of > suspicion of   H. pylori infection. Anaemia was treated with oral ferrous > sulphate.   Two patients needed blood transfusions. Eradication therapy was > given   either with combination of colloidal bismuth subcitrate and > metronidazole or with omeprazole, clarithromycin and amoxycillin. Eradication > was confirmed by urea breath test 4 weeks post-treatment.   RESULTS: H. pylori > infection was confirmed histologically and   microbiologically in all children, > who also presented with chronic,   active gastritis. Bacteria were successfully > eradicated in 7/8   patients. Correction of haemoglobin values was observed > post-treatment, iron stores still being deficient at control in 4/8 children. > CONCLUSIONS: Our results suggest that H. pylori might have a   role in causing > iron deficiency anaemia in school-age children.   Screening for H. pylori > should be extended to cover those patients   with other clinical manifestations > than symptoms from gastrointestinal   tract.      PMID: 11444468, UI: 21337369 > Jesus was a vegetarian! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman > Moses was a mystic! http://www.nucleus.com/watchman/light.html

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