Mr. Asthma

Question:

>Dear Pam >No where in my post did I say I had a *cure* for asthma.  Read it >again!  I said that I had cured *my* asthma — and I added that I did it >by monitoring my dietary intake and avoiding foods that have high >chemical content.  Chemicals that *can*, in many cases, trigger physical >reactions and allergies that present as asthma and more often than not – >insomnia.  I believe that through this nightmare experience, I can *help >solve* the problems of asthma and insomnia — and I’ve got patients who >will back me up.  To date, however, we haven’t *cured* anything!

That sounds like a fair bit of back-pedalling. What you said was that you had *cured yourself*, and that you could do the same for other people. You therefore implied that you could *cure* a condition which has baffled the medical profession for centuries. I suggest you proof-read your posts before hitting send in future. >Frankly, you sound like a woman content to use a puffer your entire life >whilst sitting on the sofa stuffing your face with nachos and drinking >diet coke.  Well dear – go ahead. That’s your choice. If it works for >you — fine.  From my point of view, you speak from ignorance.  And BTW, >I think you know what you can do with the term ‘germ’.  In fact, I’m >*positive* you do!

Well pal, you’ve just blown away any chance of picking up clients from here. With an attitude like that, it’s patently obvious that you’re just a cynical salesman who was looking to fleece some customers. And just like most of the cynical salesdroids that infest this newsgroup, you’ve turned on your potential clientele because they don’t take everything you say for granted. Coming out with vitriol like that, your credibility is well and truly down the toilet. >As I recall, it wasn’t all that long ago that a lot of people said there >would never be a cure for polio. Turns out they were right (at least so >far)  – but there sure as hell are ways to prevent it.  That’s because >people kept an open mind and never gave up looking for different ways to >ease and eliminate the pain that polio caused.  You’ve had a shot of the >Salk vaccine, I’m assuming – right?

Hello, Earth calling Richard… Polio is a *viral disease*. *Asthma is not proven to be a viral condition*. Do you think we’re going to do business with someone who can’t tell the difference? >Until you really know, Pam, don’t knock a different point of view. Fact >is, I’m an honest guy! And I frankly, resent your ignorant cynicism.

Oh yeah, you’re "honest" – just like all the other snake-oil salesmen that slither into this group offering miracle cures. You came into a.s.a with grand claims, and expected us to just swallow it ? Credit us with some sense !!! >Richard  (one of the "richards of this world" who feels the need to >                 stick up for what’s right!)

In your book, I suppose that Right = anything that makes a profit. BZZZZTTT ! Thanks for playing… Chris — Chris King http://www.csking.demon.co.uk

Response:

> Dear Pam > No where in my post did I say I had a *cure* for asthma.  Read it > again!  I said that I had cured *my* asthma — and I added that I did it > by monitoring my dietary intake and avoiding foods that have high > chemical content.  Chemicals that *can*, in many cases, trigger physical > reactions and allergies that present as asthma and more often than not – > insomnia.  I believe that through this nightmare experience, I can *help > solve* the problems of asthma and insomnia — and I’ve got patients who > will back me up.  To date, however, we haven’t *cured* anything!

So you _think_ that you ‘cured’ your asthma.  And you _think_ that monitoring your dietary intake and avoiding ‘chemicals’ (isn’t everything a chemical of some sort?) had something to do with it. And because of this you _think_ that you can treat asthma? BTW, can you document you claim that chemicals *can* trigger physical reactions and allergies? > As I recall, it wasn’t all that long ago that a lot of people said there > would never be a cure for polio. Turns out they were right (at least so > far)  – but there sure as hell are ways to prevent it.  That’s because > people kept an open mind and never gave up looking for different ways to > ease and eliminate the pain that polio caused.  You’ve had a shot of the > Salk vaccine, I’m assuming – right?

Of course the polio vaccine was not the product of ‘alterantive’ medicine.  It was the product of years of scientific research and testing.  It was also developed by people who were considered to be experts in the field. We do have ‘open’ minds.  And if you want us to treat your treatment with the same credibility as the Salk vaccine, we need to see your qualifications and your research.

Response:

from YOUR posts…..you say on your web page that you are not a doctor…just a concerned citizen…..something like that.  What exactly ARE your qualifications?  I’m sure many people in the news group, on both sides of the fence, are curious. And while you’re at it please submit the name of the "authority" that you represent, your charter from that "authority" and any good reason why anyone here needs to apply for permission from YOU to voice opinions in this NG.  Outside of a self-serving need to pose as an expert…..who made you the boss??

Response:

> from YOUR posts….          … > permission from YOU to voice opinions in this NG.  Outside of a > self-serving need to pose as an expert…..who made you the boss??

It seems to me that Colin and Ellis (Fleenor) have excellent qualifications:    They can and do read.    They know how to use a library and the Net for lit. searches.    They are willing to pass on their knowledge and informed opinion.    They give freely of their efforts to find and pass on references.     I don’t recall seeing any of their postings that pretended to give anyone orders – just suggestions. Their postings and those of similar bent on this site have saved ME many hours of searching out info on my meds and related topics. Thanks guys (and gals) Ted

Response:

> from YOUR posts…..you say on your web page that you are not a > doctor…just a concerned citizen…..something like that.

I have only claimed to be a well-educated asthma patient.  This is why I post the sources (generally scientiifc research) as support for my positions. If you have a problem with my data, then why don’t you discuss the _data_. You seem to be carefully avoiding any discussion of my data – why is this? >  What exactly > ARE your qualifications?  I’m sure many people in the news group, on > both sides of the fence, are curious. And while you’re at it please > submit the name of the "authority" that you represent, your charter from > that "authority" and any good reason why anyone here needs to apply for > permission from YOU to voice opinions in this NG.  Outside of a > self-serving need to pose as an expert…..who made you the boss??

My ‘authority’ is in the data I present.  This is why I have consistantly given you references to my sources.  If you have a problem with the data I present, then please indicate why you feel that the data is not accurate or appropiate. I have been able to provide a great amount of scientific references that conclude that ozone is harmfull to asthmatics.  So far you appear to have been unable to counter those scientific studies with anything other than retoric. I am not the ‘boss’, but I will point out the dangers and flaws in unproven remedies and dangerous products.

Response:

>from YOUR posts…..you say on your web page that you are not a >doctor…just a concerned citizen…..something like that.  What exactly >ARE your qualifications?  I’m sure many people in the news group, on >both sides of the fence, are curious. And while you’re at it please >submit the name of the "authority" that you represent, your charter from >that "authority" and any good reason why anyone here needs to apply for >permission from YOU to voice opinions in this NG.  Outside of a >self-serving need to pose as an expert…..who made you the boss??

It needed to be said.  I am so fed up with this guy’s countless and never ending posts, with just a few *trite* statements in them being repeated like a mantra.  He must be on the payroll of some "authority", who else could or would post that much, having so little to say?  Not long ago, in one of his posts ( I believe it was a reply to Cindy), he said that he looks at the clock to decide when to stop replying.  I guess they are not paying over-time . I just hope the "authority" will recognize that he has become too obnoxious to be effective and give us a break with a new, fresh face . Anyway, it was a pleasure seeing your post, made my day. P.S.    Everything I say is highly subjective and not based on anything whatsoever, let alone on any scientific fact.  I didn’t even have a double blind study and it wasn’t peer reviewed.  I basically post it just because nobody can stop me from doing so .  That and the certainty that a few of his back-up guys will jump to his defense, while the silent majority on the NG will just shrug.  That’s how the school yard bullies take over the school yards. Vlad

Response:

> It needed to be said.  I am so fed up with this guy’s countless and > never ending posts, with just a few *trite* statements in them being > repeated like a mantra.  He must be on the payroll of some > "authority", who else could or would post that much, having so little > to say?  Not long ago, in one of his posts ( I believe it was a reply > to Cindy), he said that he looks at the clock to decide when to stop > replying.  I guess they are not paying over-time . > I just hope the "authority" will recognize that he has become too > obnoxious to be effective and give us a break with a new, > fresh face . > Anyway, it was a pleasure seeing your post, made my day.

I find it fascinating that you folks are so upset with Colin.  I post things about alternative medicine all the time and he doesn’t give me much trouble (oh, ok, once in a while he asks a question but that’s about it).  Maybe it’s because I am not trying to make a buck off anyone .  Maybe it is also because I agree with him that standard medical treatment is the wisest choice.  I dunno.  I just know he’s not totally closed on the subject as you all seem to think he is. Maybe I’ll volunteer to be that fresh face.  Nah, I wouldn’t be as nice as Colin is. Loki

Response:

> I have only claimed to be a well-educated asthma patient.  This is why > I > post the sources (generally scientiifc research) as support for my > positions. > If you have a problem with my data, then why don’t you discuss the > _data_. > My ‘authority’ is in the data I present.  This is why I have > consistantly > given you references to my sources.  If you have a problem with the > data I > present, then please indicate why you feel that the data is not > accurate or > appropiate.

  I don’t know why, Colin, but I do like to watch your arguments with the others.  You _do_ seem to come out on top alot, but you do often argue with 1)logical and scientific lightweights 2) people who are marketing something ( Redundance intended).   Despite the level of disagreement we had in previous posts, I do appreciate where you are coming from…you do give helpful advice sometimes, and I certainly haven’t had the time to answer people’s basic questions like you take the time to do .  ( I sense the healthy suspicion rising…what is she up to?what does she want? is she selling something?!) An area of early disagreement for us was about scientific research concerning Vitamin C and nutritional supplements.  I did ,and still do, question the way you interpret research.  You have developed an ability to find research about asthma and other relevant topics.  Great!  I’ll concede that you can find the research, but I’m not sure you really do anything but read the conclusions at the end of the journal articles.  I even question the way you interpret these conclusions (i.e. "no proven role" does not even remotely equal "generally regarded as a waste of time.") Do you _really_ read_ the large number of studies you find and throw around in your arguments with others in these threads? Or do you just rely on reading the study conclusions because the content is dry and technical?  Truthfully, now! I’m not going to say you _must_ have had university level courses to understand and use this stuff. But … and this is a big but… it seems you never QUESTION the studies.  Not even remotely.  Not even a little bit.  Usually the first project in a research class is a _critique_ of a published study.  The idea that research instructors are planting is: you don’t always need a lot of expertise to make valid criticisms of published research!  So, I will make a leap and guess that you haven’t taken any research classes. Fine.  Like I said, you can still get some good out of finding and reading the latest research. The review process you talk about doesn’t end with publication.  That is just the beginning.  Getting published just means that the study probably has no serious <fundamental> flaws.  Publication just means they got <something> right, and the work can be used as a basis for other research to build on.  All research has flaws, and doctors and scientists make conclusions based on flawed research… it’s just that the doctors  feel that flaws are small enough to let the research be the basis of some imperfect(open to criticism) conclusions and recommendations. I don’t say all of this to question your qualifications to read research.  I question your constant practice of beating others over the head with research and data.  Somebody who doesn’t see the research in a critical light shouldn’t wrap himself in it.  If you aren’t in a position to understand the possible flaws of the research, you shouldn’t be quoting it, and if you are, you are quoting it from an uninformed perspective. You may feel that you are qualified to throw research conclusions around to others.  I am questioning your qualifications, yes.  I do it not to win an argument, but perhaps to challenge you to read the research more critically, and to use the research in the spirit it was intended. Perhaps you might decide to take a research class ( wonderful!).  You seem to have a good mind, I just wish it was more open. (Colin Campbell, M.D., PhD… imagine the possibilities!) Since I challenge your qualifications, you have the right to know mine: B.A. Economics,  B.S. Nursing, graduate level courses in research and statistics,  36 years of asthma.  I look forward to the imperfections you may find in what I say. Peace and Good Health, Cindy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It needed to be said.  I am so fed up with this guy’s countless and > never ending posts, with just a few *trite* statements in them being > repeated like a mantra.  He must be on the payroll of some > "authority", who else could or would post that much, having so little > to say?  Not long ago, in one of his posts ( I believe it was a reply > to Cindy), he said that he looks at the clock to decide when to stop > replying.  I guess they are not paying over-time . > I just hope the "authority" will recognize that he has become too > obnoxious to be effective and give us a break with a new, > fresh face . > Anyway, it was a pleasure seeing your post, made my day. >I find it fascinating that you folks are so upset with Colin.  I post >things about alternative medicine all the time and he doesn’t give me >much trouble (oh, ok, once in a while he asks a question but that’s >about it).  Maybe it’s because I am not trying to make a buck off anyone >.  Maybe it is also because I agree with him that standard medical

>treatment is the wisest choice.  I dunno.  I just know he’s not totally

Oh Loki, don’t telll me you are one of THEM!  :-).  And all this time you were one of my favorite people on this NG.  Notice "were" . Yes, I know you post about alternative medicine all the time.  I’ve been following this NG for two years now.  I hardly ever post because I don’t feel I have that much to say (except when the subject of garlic comes up), but I learned a lot.  Let me take this opportunity to thank you for all the wonderful things I learned about herbs from you.  You are a living, walking and talking encyclopedia on herbs! Looking back at my post, maybe it was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, maybe I could have said that in a nicer way, but I stand by it.  What really gets me about him is not what he stands for, he has every right to stand for anything he chooses to and express it anywhere (including this Ng) anyhow he sees fit.  It’s just that he is not allowing the same right to those on the other side of the fence, and I am not talking about the salesmen here – nobody likes them.  I am talking about people posting about…well, anything really, anything that is not in tune with the "standard medical treatment", I am talking about his feeling compelled to jump on…almost every single post of them and demand the EVIDENCE, THE PROOF, THE DOUBLE BLIND STUDY FOR THAT, SITE THE PEER REVIEWED ARTICLE FOR THAT, WHAT IS YOUR SOURCE FOR THAT?   I am talking about that sort of thing.  He si civilized, all right, and eloquent (I’ll give him that), but the overall message coming from his posts (as I see it, anyway) is: if you can’t backup your post with any with the -capitalized things above- you have no business posting here, get out of * MY* NG.   This is not a moderated NG, but he is acting like a moderator (and a biased one, too).  You see, people shouldn’t have to go through pain wording their posts in such a way as to avoid his wreath because of their "unorthodoxy".  I have nothing personally against him and I didn’t mean to sound like that.  For all I know, he may be a very nice man.  Let’s blame it on the army, I think the army has that tendency to make people bossy . >closed on the subject as you all seem to think he is. >Maybe I’ll volunteer to be that fresh face.  Nah, I wouldn’t be as nice >as Colin is.

Alas, it’s a shame you don’t qualify for the job. Too diplomatic! And totally missing "the bossy element". This post turned out to be longer than I intended to. Sorry about that.  Going back to the lurking mode for the next two years. Vlad – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Loki

Response:

>> That’s how the school yard bullies take over the school yards. >Yes, spoken like one, whist running away …

Huh?  What is this?  A Shakespeare wanna be, or just another side effect of Lobelia overdose? Vlad

Response:

: >> That’s how the school yard bullies take over the school yards. : >Yes, spoken like one, whist running away … : Huh?  What is this?  A Shakespeare wanna be, or just another : side effect of Lobelia overdose? I believe, Monty Python is closer! Cheers, Kin Hoong

Response:

Colin and Ellis get my vote as well Thanks for the help  :-) Denis >It seems to me that Colin and Ellis (Fleenor) have excellent >qualifications:

snip> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->   >Thanks guys (and gals) >Ted

Response:

> That’s how the school yard bullies take over the school yards.

Yes, spoken like one, whist running away …

Response:

<<P.S.    Everything I say is highly subjective and not based on anything whatsoever, let alone on any scientific fact.  I didn’t even have a double blind study and it wasn’t peer reviewed.  I basically post it just because nobody can stop me from doing so .  That and the certainty that a few of his back-up guys will jump to his defense, while the silent majority on the NG will just shrug.  That’s how the school yard bullies take over the school yards. >> Thanks for injecting some humor into this sometimes too serious NG! Karen

Response:

<snip> > Do you _really_ read_ the large number of studies you find and throw > around in your arguments with others in these threads? > Or do you just rely on reading the study conclusions because the content > is dry and technical?  Truthfully, now!

Actually, I do.  Generally, I will review the abstracts then dig up the full text of the ones that seem like they have more relevant information. Generally, however I do this more of a review of the medhodology and statistics.  I do tend to place much weight with the author’s conclusions as otherwise I would be writing the papers myself.  (I do work under the impression that the guy who wrote the article knows more about the subject than I do). In fact I pay close attention to what people _say_ are the results of a study and the conclusions of the authors.  If there is a disconnect here then I get real suspicous.  I have seen too amy instances where what people have reported as the ‘results’ of  a study has nothing to do with the author’s conclusions. > I’m not going to say you _must_ have had university level courses to > understand and use this stuff. But … and this is a big but… it seems > you never QUESTION the studies.

Actually, there are many studies that I have rejected.  (Just ask the Buteyko supporters).  What I look for is 1) the reputarion of the publishing journal, 2) proper scientific and statistical methodology, 3) qualifications of the authors on the subject, and 4) if there is other research that seems to have reached similar conclusions. > I don’t say all of this to question your qualifications to read > research.  I question your constant practice of beating others over the > head with research and data.  Somebody who doesn’t see the research in a > critical light shouldn’t wrap himself in it.  If you aren’t in a > position to understand the possible flaws of the research, you shouldn’t > be quoting it, and if you are, you are quoting it from an uninformed > perspective.

I do understand the possible flaws in research, and in fact I do have others back-check my conclusions (one person does in fact peer-review scientific papers and the other is a research biochemist).  I do have to admit that sometimes my ‘expertise’ is, shall we say ‘borrowed.’ One reason I bludegon people with data is that data is something that can be picked up and examined.  We can dig into a research paper and review how the research was conducted, we can see if or how much personal bias may have colored the outcome.  I can look and see if other people have done similar research and come to similar conclusions.  I want people to realize that there is something better than folklore and ‘personal expierences.’

Response:

> Do you have a problem sleeping?  Do your suffer from asthma? >Beware of the richards in this world!!!  Any time any one tells you that

they have a CURE please tune them out, nod, smile and keep going because there is no cure for asthma. Get a grip and learn to take care of yourself. Think about this please and do not throw your money to this germ.  Pam. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> For 18 years, I suffered from chronic insomnia and asthma.  After years > of visits to physicians and dietitians, I finally cured myself of both > these debilitating illnesses through careful monitoring and analysis of > my diet, combined with exercise and an awareness of chemical allergies. > At no time did I take sleep medications or drugs of any kind.   > I’d like to share my hard-earned experience and help you solve *your* > sleep and asthma problems.   > Today, as a Registered Nutritional Consultant, I work with my clients > and offer guidance on how a change in dietary intake, combined with > vitamin supplements and a regular exercise regimen can help solve their > sleep and asthmas disorders.  My fees are very reasonable and my > services are genuine.   > A web-site offering more extensive information is currently in the > design stage — but if you’d like immediate information on my approach > to solving these problems — please e-mail your background or fax a > brief health bio to the number listed below. I will be in touch. I am, > in no way, affiliated with any hard-sell (or even *soft* sell) > organizations.  All or any information received will be kept in > strictest confidence.   > You *can* breathe freely and you will sleep well again ….   > Richard Tufts –  Sleep Solutions, Toronto, CA  (Fax: 416-483-8412)

Response:

Dear Pam No where in my post did I say I had a *cure* for asthma.  Read it again!  I said that I had cured *my* asthma — and I added that I did it by monitoring my dietary intake and avoiding foods that have high chemical content.  Chemicals that *can*, in many cases, trigger physical reactions and allergies that present as asthma and more often than not – insomnia.  I believe that through this nightmare experience, I can *help solve* the problems of asthma and insomnia — and I’ve got patients who will back me up.  To date, however, we haven’t *cured* anything! Frankly, you sound like a woman content to use a puffer your entire life whilst sitting on the sofa stuffing your face with nachos and drinking diet coke.  Well dear – go ahead. That’s your choice. If it works for you — fine.  From my point of view, you speak from ignorance.  And BTW, I think you know what you can do with the term ‘germ’.  In fact, I’m *positive* you do!   As I recall, it wasn’t all that long ago that a lot of people said there would never be a cure for polio. Turns out they were right (at least so far)  – but there sure as hell are ways to prevent it.  That’s because people kept an open mind and never gave up looking for different ways to ease and eliminate the pain that polio caused.  You’ve had a shot of the Salk vaccine, I’m assuming – right?   Until you really know, Pam, don’t knock a different point of view. Fact is, I’m an honest guy! And I frankly, resent your ignorant cynicism.   Richard  (one of the "richards of this world" who feels the need to                  stick up for what’s right!) > Do you have a problem sleeping?  Do your suffer from asthma?

 >Beware of the richards in this world!!!  Any time any one tells you that – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> they > have a CURE please tune them out, nod, smile and keep going because there > is no cure for asthma. Get a grip and learn to take care of yourself. > Think about this please and do not throw your money to this germ.  Pam. > For 18 years, I suffered from chronic insomnia and asthma.  After years > of visits to physicians and dietitians, I finally cured myself of both > these debilitating illnesses through careful monitoring and analysis of > my diet, combined with exercise and an awareness of chemical allergies. > At no time did I take sleep medications or drugs of any kind. > I’d like to share my hard-earned experience and help you solve *your* > sleep and asthma problems. > Today, as a Registered Nutritional Consultant, I work with my clients > and offer guidance on how a change in dietary intake, combined with > vitamin supplements and a regular exercise regimen can help solve their > sleep and asthmas disorders.  My fees are very reasonable and my > services are genuine. > A web-site offering more extensive information is currently in the > design stage — but if you’d like immediate information on my approach > to solving these problems — please e-mail your background or fax a > brief health bio to the number listed below. I will be in touch. I am, > in no way, affiliated with any hard-sell (or even *soft* sell) > organizations.  All or any information received will be kept in > strictest confidence. > You *can* breathe freely and you will sleep well again …. > Richard Tufts –  Sleep Solutions, Toronto, CA  (Fax: 416-483-8412)

Response:

Do you have a problem sleeping?  Do your suffer from asthma? For 18 years, I suffered from chronic insomnia and asthma.  After years of visits to physicians and dietitians, I finally cured myself of both these debilitating illnesses through careful monitoring and analysis of my diet, combined with exercise and an awareness of chemical allergies. At no time did I take sleep medications or drugs of any kind.   I’d like to share my hard-earned experience and help you solve *your* sleep and asthma problems.   Today, as a Registered Nutritional Consultant, I work with my clients and offer guidance on how a change in dietary intake, combined with vitamin supplements and a regular exercise regimen can help solve their sleep and asthmas disorders.  My fees are very reasonable and my services are genuine.   A web-site offering more extensive information is currently in the design stage — but if you’d like immediate information on my approach to solving these problems — please e-mail your background or fax a brief health bio to the number listed below. I will be in touch. I am, in no way, affiliated with any hard-sell (or even *soft* sell) organizations.  All or any information received will be kept in strictest confidence.   You *can* breathe freely and you will sleep well again ….   Richard Tufts –  Sleep Solutions, Toronto, CA  (Fax: 416-483-8412)

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