Mr. Asthma » Bronchial Asthma

Need Help!!

admin — Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am 25 years old and I need assistance with information regarding my > medical condition. Yes, I have been to several doctors and have > received nothing, but prescriptions. Please read the following issues > and help me if you can with my questions below. > Asthma Conditions > I have had asthma for 15 years and over the past three years it has > gotten worse and worse. I currently take Flovent and Albuterol for my > asthma control. I am now using my Albuterol inhaler around every two > to three hours a day to control tight breathing. Sometimes I try to > work it out on my own with breathing or caffine, but nothing will work > like the inhaler. I am afraid that I am using my inhaler too much > even with the Flovent and need to know the long term effect and any > medical alternatives. > Other Medical Conditions (Allergies and Acid Reflux) > To add to it, I have acid reflux, of which I take PrevAcid for. I was > put on three different medications for that and after a hospital visit > and severe reactions, PrevAcid seems to be the champion. I also have > allergies of which I take Allegra and Vaconase. > Medical Insurance > Due to economic conditions, I was laid off and have been independantly > contracting for 8 months now. I went through Blue Cross and Unicare > and I ended up settling for Unicare, but they would not cover me only > my family. > Questions > 1. What effect this will have in the long-run, hear damage, etc? > 2. Why is my asthma getting worse? > 3. Any recommendations on independent insurance companies that would > cover my conditions. > Thanks, > Joe

Hello: There is a less expensive way to purchase medication if one does not have insurance coverage. There are several online U.S.companies that are connected with Canadian based companies. There can be 30% to 80% lower cost. http://www.mapleleafmeds.com and http://www.canadameds.com. Visit the sites perhaps they can be of some use. Insurance coverage, so far I have not found any company that covers pre-existing conditions and is affordable in my income level. I research online and ask local folks about insurance coverage. If possible a move to an area with better air quality may be of help. Ask your doctor about the long term effects of your medical condition and the medications you use. Research online. I hope Advair is a long term solution for you. Remember to have an eye pressure test when changing medications due to the possibility of an increase in ocular pressure. I have several problems one not unlike your problem but in my case due to interactive healh problems Prednisone is the most effective medication. Take Care. beamish.

Response:

You’re doing the right things: albuterol and Flovent. Jus’ looks like you need to up the Flovent. Maybe you’ like to switch to Pulmocort (budesonide) the other effective ’steroid.

Response:

I have responded to some of you via e-mail, but wanted to say thank you again for all of your information. Thanks again, Joe

Response:

Update!!! I went to my doctor on Friday and she gave me a prescription for Advair. I have taken it for two days now and have only used one puff of my inhaler. I hope this stays for a while, I am very much releaved and am feeling and breathing much better. -Joe

Response:

–cut– > Asthma Conditions > I have had asthma for 15 years and over the past three years it has > gotten worse and worse. I currently take Flovent and Albuterol for my > asthma control. I am now using my Albuterol inhaler around every two > to three hours a day to control tight breathing. Sometimes I try to > work it out on my own with breathing or caffine, but nothing will work > like the inhaler. I am afraid that I am using my inhaler too much > even with the Flovent and need to know the long term effect and any > medical alternatives.

The need to use albuterol one or more times per day indicates the need to increase the dose of your steroid inhaler, in this case Flovent. Failure to control the lung inflammation with the steroid inhaler can lead to ‘remodeling’ of the lung. An alternative to reduce the need for Flovent, is to add theophylline in low dose. This may not be a viable option for you due to your reflux condition [theophylline can exacerbate reflux]. However the long acting bronchodilator Serevent can be added to reduce the need for steroid inhalers and albuterol. Another possibility might be to try adding Singulair, but it only helps 2/3 who try it and it’s not cheap. > Other Medical Conditions (Allergies and Acid Reflux) > To add to it, I have acid reflux, of which I take PrevAcid for. I was > put on three different medications for that and after a hospital visit > and severe reactions, PrevAcid seems to be the champion. I also have > allergies of which I take Allegra and Vaconase.

Rhinitis & GE reflux can worsen asthma. > Medical Insurance > Due to economic conditions, I was laid off and have been independantly > contracting for 8 months now. I went through Blue Cross and Unicare > and I ended up settling for Unicare, but they would not cover me only > my family. > Questions > 1. What effect this will have in the long-run, hear damage, etc? > 2. Why is my asthma getting worse? > 3. Any recommendations on independent insurance companies that would > cover my conditions. > Thanks, Joe

1, Albuterol is a relatively safe drug, even in huge doses; however albuterol does not treat the underlying inflammatory condition; failure to adequately treat the inflammation with inhaled steroids can cause permanent lung damage. 2. There are a variety of reasons why asthma could get worse; not enough inhaled steroid to control bronchial inflammation, lung infection of some sort, GE reflux and rhinitis not adequately controlled, environmental factors, etc. 3. Insurance companies are in business to make a profit. They expect to take in more in premiums than they pay out in benefits. Hence they tend to reject patients with chronic conditions or charge high premiums. Your best bet is for you or your wife to go to work for a company with group insurance. There are ways for those who qualify to get low cost drugs. See: http://www.phrma.org/pap/ Directory of Prescription Drug Patient Assistance Programs http://www.themedicineprogram.com/ The Medicine Program "MEDICINE at NO COST!" http://www.needymeds.com/ Free Drugs http://www.ashp.org/public/news/breaking/asthma.html Free asthma & allergy drugs Ellis

Response:

>1, Albuterol is a relatively safe drug, even in huge doses;

Thanks Ellis, this just documents what you have previously expressed.

Response:

Long term uncontrolled asthma can lead to irreversible airway disease, such as COPD. Excessive albuterol use can be dangerous and cause life threatening conditions such as cardiac arrest and paradoxical bronchospasm. Sounds like you need to see a pulmonologist to get your asthma under control. Many places will setup payment plans, and sometimes offer discounts and give extra samples of medications to those without insurance. You may also try looking for a free clinic in your area if you qualify. If you need help locating a pulmonologist or free clinic Best of luck to you, J. Thompson, RRT >Questions >1. What effect this will have in the long-run, hear damage, etc? >2. Why is my asthma getting worse? >3. Any recommendations on independent insurance companies that would >cover my conditions. >Thanks, >Joe

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>Excessive albuterol use can be dangerous and cause life threatening >conditions such as cardiac arrest and paradoxical bronchospasm.

Just curious, but what do you call exessive usage?

Response:

You’re right Joe. If you’re using albuterol that often your asthma isn’t under control. Flovent is a good steroid but you may not be using enough of it. For that bad Houston air I hope you have a hepa type air cleaner (machine) Many good brands. I also use a de-humidifier in the wet months and a humidifier in the cld weather when the steam heat is going. jack

Response:

It really matters where in Houston. The east side is the industrial side. I live on the west side and don’t smell anything. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> supervisor and told him to get someone else to work Houston. All those > factories spewing their crap in the air is so concentrated it has nowhere to > go. I used to have a website that showed how much pollution in a day in the > cities around the country, but my computer crashed and I lost it. Nope, I > did not back up. > That always showed Houston to be one of the worst. > Most private insurance companies won’t cover you for the 1st year for > pre-existing conditions. If you get a job with company insurance you are > usually covered from the 1st day. Hope this helps you. > Kathy

Response:

I am 25 years old and I need assistance with information regarding my medical condition. Yes, I have been to several doctors and have received nothing, but prescriptions. Please read the following issues and help me if you can with my questions below. Asthma Conditions I have had asthma for 15 years and over the past three years it has gotten worse and worse. I currently take Flovent and Albuterol for my asthma control. I am now using my Albuterol inhaler around every two to three hours a day to control tight breathing. Sometimes I try to work it out on my own with breathing or caffine, but nothing will work like the inhaler. I am afraid that I am using my inhaler too much even with the Flovent and need to know the long term effect and any medical alternatives. Other Medical Conditions (Allergies and Acid Reflux) To add to it, I have acid reflux, of which I take PrevAcid for. I was put on three different medications for that and after a hospital visit and severe reactions, PrevAcid seems to be the champion. I also have allergies of which I take Allegra and Vaconase. Medical Insurance Due to economic conditions, I was laid off and have been independantly contracting for 8 months now. I went through Blue Cross and Unicare and I ended up settling for Unicare, but they would not cover me only my family. Questions 1. What effect this will have in the long-run, hear damage, etc? 2. Why is my asthma getting worse? 3. Any recommendations on independent insurance companies that would cover my conditions. Thanks, Joe

Response:

Joe, If your living in Houston, that is your first problem. That is the nastiest air I have ever attempted to breathe. I went there to do some work for my company and I got into town and I turned around and left. I called my supervisor and told him to get someone else to work Houston. All those factories spewing their crap in the air is so concentrated it has nowhere to go. I used to have a website that showed how much pollution in a day in the cities around the country, but my computer crashed and I lost it. Nope, I did not back up. That always showed Houston to be one of the worst. Most private insurance companies won’t cover you for the 1st year for pre-existing conditions. If you get a job with company insurance you are usually covered from the 1st day. Hope this helps you. Kathy

Response:

O2 levels drop at night

admin — Sat, 16 Nov 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> Somewhere I found a study that listed about 20 reasons why asthmatics have > more trouble at night.

I always hear that, for most, asthma is worse at night. I for one am better at night (after 11:00 PM). I think it’s because, where I live, what ever irritant in the air gives me breathing trouble, settles down. Dave Ford Smart Soft – The Developer Training Company http://www.smart-soft.com

Response:

Sorry, I have no idea where I got this originally. Introduction Nocturnal worsening of asthma is a significant clinical problem and must be considered in the management of the disease. Two main strategies should be considered in the treatment of nocturnal asthma: indirect nonpharmacological interventions or drug therapy. The various available treatment options are outlined in the Patient care guidelines. The Size of the Problem Approximately 40% of outpatients with asthma experience nocturnal symptoms every night and 75% awaken at least 1 night a week. [1] This problem is also reflected in mortality statistics. In 1 study, 53% of deaths from asthma occurred at night over a 1-year period; 79% of these patients had prior complaints of asthma affecting their sleep and these occurred every night in 42% of patients. [2] Over 90% of dyspnoeic episodes occur between 10pm and 7am. [1] Circadian Rhythms Play An Important Role Circadian changes in lung function (ranging from 10 to 50% in asthmatic patients vs 5 to 8% in the normal population) play an important role in nocturnal asthma. Peak lung function occurs at approximately 4pm and the nadir at around 4am. [1] Various naturally occurring circadian rhythms are thought to contribute to increased airways inflammation and nocturnal worsening of asthma. [1] Some of these are as follows: [1] Bronchial responsiveness to inhaled constrictors such as histamine, methacholine and acetylcholine is markedly increased in asthmatic patients at night. Levels of eosinophils, neutrophils, superoxide and histamine in the airways increase in the early morning hours. Peak cortisol levels occur upon awakening and trough levels occur in the late evening hours. Adrenaline (epinephrine) levels peak during the afternoon and trough during the early morning. Cholinergic or vagal tone increases at night. In normal individuals, these have only a minor effect on lung function. Additionally, in asthmatic patients with nocturnal asthma, both the number and physiological function of beta2-adrenoceptors are significantly reduced from 4pm to 4am compared with asthmatic patients who do not experience nocturnal worsening or with healthy controls. [1] Indirect Nonpharmacological Methods These focus on the use of mechanical or other approaches to treat sleep-related asthma. Overall, a small percentage of the asthmatic population may benefit from these measures. Favourable carry-over effects on daytime lung function and symptom control may also be seen in treated individuals.[1] CPAP for patients with sleep apnoea Nasal administration of continuous positive airway pressure (CPAP) is useful for patients with nocturnal asthma and sleep apnoea, but is ineffective in patients with nocturnal asthma without sleep apnoea. CPAP improves both morning and evening peak expiratory flow rates (PEFRs) as well as symptoms and medication requirements. The existence of obstructive sleep apnoea should also be considered and appropriately treated. [1] Gastro-oesophageal reflux a factor? The relationship between gastro-oesophageal reflux and controversial. reflux in nocturnal asthma should be based on symptoms of reflux, rather than worsening of asthma. Antacids and H2-antagonists provide little benefit in individuals with reflux and aspiration. [1] Sinusitis/rhinitis a treatable problem Chronic sinusitis and/or postnasal drip are frequent problems in asthmatic patients. Treatment is likely to improve both daytime and nocturnal symptoms (see Patient care guidelines). [1] Train those inspiratory muscles Inspiratory muscle training may have some potential in the treatment of nocturnal asthma. [1] This technique has been shown to increase inspiratory muscle strength and endurance and improve nocturnal symptoms, morning tightness, daytime asthma and cough in patients with nocturnal asthma. [3] A warm, humid environment Normal circadian decreases in body temperature at night (by about 1oC), with concomitant cooling of the airways, are thought to trigger nocturnal asthma. Although a warm, humid atmosphere may benefit some patients, it must be used cautiously, since heat and humidification may exacerbate symptoms in other individuals. Moreover, patient acceptability of this method is low. [1] Drug Therapy Pharmacological approaches for treating nocturnal asthma should take the patient’s symptom profile into account, since the effectiveness of various agents (e.g. inhaled corticosteroids and short-acting beta2-agonists) will differ in patients with prominent nocturnal symptoms compared to those with prominently daytime symptoms. [1] Some agents (e.g. modified-release preparations of oral beta2-agonists and theophylline) may be administered in unequal morning/evening doses to provide additional benefit for nocturnal symptoms. However, such schedules increase the complexity of treatment regimens and may contribute to decreased compliance. [1] Overnight and morning PEFRs should be used as measures of efficacy, together with recording the number of nocturnal awakenings and the amount of short-acting beta2-agonist use. Improvements in quality of life may be achieved by better control of the disease. [1] Beta2-agonists: an increasing role Oral beta2-agonists. Modified-release preparations may be of value in patients with nocturnal asthma as an alternative to theophylline. [4] The use of unequal morning/evening doses (e.g. one-third of the daily dose at 8am and two-thirds at 8pm) may provide additional benefit. [1] Inhaled beta2-agonists. The newer long-acting agents (such as salmeterol) produce bronchodilation for 12 hours after an inhaled dose (see table 1). [1] Salmeterol is currently included in both the UK and US asthma guidelines. [5] Short-acting inhaled beta2-agonists may also be useful for night-time awakenings in all patients with nocturnal asthma. [1] Modified-release theophylline Achieving nocturnal theophylline blood concentrations of around 15 mg/L has been shown to improve nocturnal asthma without attendant adverse effects during sleep. [1] Modified-release preparations may be used in two ways. Higher nocturnal therapeutic plasma theophylline concentrations may be achieved with twice-daily regimens by delivering two-thirds of the daily dose at night and one-third of the daily dose in the morning. Such regimens have been used with varying degrees of success. [1] Alternatively, once-daily preparations may be administered in the evening (around 6 to 7pm) to achieve a similar effect. This has been found to be clinically superior to conventional twice-daily administration. [6,7] Oral corticosteroids: timing important Oral corticosteroids play an important role in the management of nocturnal asthma. Results from several studies indicate that timing of corticosteroid administration is crucial; optimal improvements in overnight lung function may be attained by giving doses at 3pm. [8-12] In 1 study, morning (8am) and evening (8pm) doses did not produce favourable changes when compared with placebo. [12] Of limited benefit . . . Inhaled corticosteroids. In general, improvements in nocturnal lung function seen with inhaled corticosteroid therapy does not exceed 50%. [1] However, where the nocturnal symptoms are an extension of poorly controlled asthma, improving overall control by ensuring correct and regular use of adequate dosage of inhaled corticosteroids is essential. Others. Sodium cromoglycate (cromolyn sodium) and nedocromil are of limited value in the treatment of nocturnal asthma. [1] Overall, inhaled anticholinergics have little effect on overnight falls in pulmonary function; available agents are too short-acting to cover the entire night. [1] Vagolytics, such as intravenous atropine, have been shown to produce better bronchodilation at night than during the day. [13] —- Online Resources Search Medscape’s full text articles and MEDLINE —- Table 1 – Duration of action of some beta2-agonists administered via aerosol inhalation [4] Agent Duration of effecta Rimiterol + 1-2 hours Salbutamol (albuterol) 3-5 hours Terbutaline 3-5 hours Fenoterol + 3-5 hours Salmeterol approximately 12 hours + Rimiterol is not available in Canada, Germany, The Netherlands, Spain, Sweden and the US; fenoterol is not available in the US. a At recommended dosages.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Somewhere I found a study that listed about 20 reasons why asthmatics have > more trouble at night. If I come on it, I will post it tomorrow. > Hello > I just came back from my specialist who told me my sleep studies show I > don’t have sleep apnea but my oxygen levels dropped to 80 something during > the night. He is now trying to arrange oxygen for me at night. Anyone > have > this? > — > Shari Rose > You can be upset because rose bushes have thorns, > Or you can rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello > I just came back from my specialist who told me my sleep studies show I > don’t have sleep apnea but my oxygen levels dropped to 80 something during > the night. He is now trying to arrange oxygen for me at night. Anyone have > this? > — > Shari Rose > You can be upset because rose bushes have thorns, > Or you can rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.

Hi Shari, I used an O2 concentrator for a few months after I had a very bad case of pneumonia (almost two years ago now). According to the pulmonary doctor, my small airways were the main part of the problem. After allergy shots, better treatment of my asthma and a readjustment of the pressure on my CPAP (I have OSA), we were able to eliminate the O2 concentrator. The biggest corrective factor was discovering that I required a higher pressure on my CPAP machine (and ultimately to replace the CPAP machine since it was not holding pressure). The concentrator I had was big, noisy and produced a lot of waste heat. It did make a world of difference when I needed it though. One suggestion… Make sure they give you a concentrator with an O2 sensor on it. It’s always good to know that the machine is working properly and when it’s actually producing O2 (it has to run for a few minutes before it starts to produce it). Dan Rhea "Loyalty is for family, friends and country, not operating systems, compilers and computers" – Dan Rhea, 1986

Response:

Somewhere I found a study that listed about 20 reasons why asthmatics have more trouble at night. If I come on it, I will post it tomorrow.

Response:

Hello I just came back from my specialist who told me my sleep studies show I don’t have sleep apnea but my oxygen levels dropped to 80 something during the night. He is now trying to arrange oxygen for me at night. Anyone have this? — Shari Rose You can be upset because rose bushes have thorns, Or you can rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.

Response:

Looking for testimonials: Does Endogenous Respiration Work?

admin — Thu, 05 Sep 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Why this public self-castigation in the form of breath deprival masquerading as medical treatment? Post your stuff to a psycho or cult group to get a proper discussion. There is no conspiracy to suppress knowledge about carbon dioxide’s "role as a sovereign remedy for asthma and masses of other ailments" (the Buteyko agenda). Peter Kolb is a notorious spammer who never stands his ground. A public nuisance. If the pulmonologists and ENT docs have a guilty secret, a mean trick of the trade, then it would appear to be concealing the paradoxical effect of nasal resistance on depth of inhalation, but this appears to be due to rigid compartmentalization of the body rather than to malice aforethought. A Google or PubMed search will reveal that some ongoing asthma research is centered on the bronchiodilating effect of a deep inspiration. See f.i. J Appl Physiol 2000 Aug;89(2):711-20 "Potent bronchoprotective effect of deep inspiration and its absence in asthma" – and many other studies with authors such as Permutt, Togias and Kapsali. However there does not appear to be least hint here to the effect of nasal resistance. There are no details of how the deep inspiration is performed. But a simple test with a peakflow meter or incentive spirometer will show you that an inspiration leads to a sizable inspired volume if done normally with a distinct feeling of air flow in the nose. If you do the inhale with your mouth very wide open and as if you were going to cough, then the volume will be very much smaller. Training to increase nose resistance has helped me to get more air into my lungs at any time I like naturally. However for some reason which the layman cannot understand this fact is not taken into account in said ongoing research. The asthma pundits stick to considering the lung as if resistance in the upper airways (nose, throat) were irrelevant. Does the principle of compartmentalization really stand higher than common sense and save a study from being scientifically flawed? Returning to the poster’s point, SIMT (specific inspiratory muscle training) is much less onerous than Buteyko, is reasonably safe and healthy and is recommended by a leading asthma researcher and author of studies on it. Just do a Net search with the key words "inspiratory" and "asthma" to review the claims of the makers of the gadgets. Here are some links to illustrations from the material on SIMT devices. http://gymratz.co.uk/usrimage/cat57.jpg http://www.ultrabreathe.com/ubcolm2.JPG http://www.allergysupply.com/images/a_730.gif http://www.j-f-financial.com/sportsbreather/BreatherTrans.JPG%2012K.jpg http://www.brunel.ac.uk/depts/des/research/staff/images_am/akm2.jpeg http://www.trainair.co.uk/images/handset2.jpg http://www.powerlung.com/products/trainer_icon.gif Regards, Richard Friedel

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Well Buteyko worked for me and I am now in my 6th drug free year > after years of continual asthma medications, with nasty bonichal > infections. Prior to adult onset of asthma, I would have suffered > successively from hayfever, chronic rhinnitus and sinusitus. > There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and > Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. > Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org > They are being presented at a conference on respiratory medicine this > month. > The Glasgow trial is bigger and seems to be more promising but as yet > no official report though the initial work has been completed. > For those of you who want a good website to get more information > For information on Buteyko Breathing Therapy provided by > grateful users. > http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm > Anne

Response:

I agree that something smells fishy here. Go to any other organization and you will see a link to their ‘parent’ university or agency. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

>I don’t think they’re "afraid" of anything. >More likely it’s a front for companies selling various alt med products. >They want your address and phone number to give to the telemarketers, no >doubt. >And they want your email address, in order to email you spam >advertising. > I agree that something smells fishy here. Go to any other > organization and you will see a link to their ‘parent’ university or > agency.

I think you’re right guys. I did register and received my approval within a matter of minutes (not a couple of days as they suggest). I had a good look at the site. Nothing spectacular, but had a tendency to promote the fact that a clinical trial for Buteyko, supposedly being undertaken by a Notts Hospital is having the results falsified (sp) by the researchers. Lots of mention of a website called LIFESource with markets (very expensively) all sorts of teaching products for Buteyko. RayB

Response:

> I think you’re right guys. I did register and received my approval within a >matter of minutes (not a couple of days as they suggest). I had a good look >at the site. Nothing spectacular, but had a tendency to promote the fact >that a clinical trial for Buteyko, supposedly being undertaken by a Notts >Hospital is having the results falsified (sp) by the researchers. Lots of >mention of a website called LIFESource with markets (very expensively) all >sorts of teaching products for Buteyko.

So the people are nothing but a ’stealth’ buteyko-marketing organization. (And I am willing to bet Notts Hospital’s research is not showing Buteyko a success.) — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed >> at >> www.asthma-research.org >Unfortunately you have to register for this web site. They want addresses, >phone numbers and try to set a cookie. Also, you have to get approved for >access and it will take a couple days. > Why the registration? And why the approval? Why can’t ALL interested parties > simply acces the site, and read the preliminary results? What are they afraid > of?

I don’t think they’re "afraid" of anything. More likely it’s a front for companies selling various alt med products. They want your address and phone number to give to the telemarketers, no doubt. And they want your email address, in order to email you spam advertising. — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

> There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and > Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. > Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org

Unfortunately you have to register for this web site. They want addresses, phone numbers and try to set a cookie. Also, you have to get approved for access and it will take a couple days.

Response:

>> Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org >Unfortunately you have to register for this web site. They want addresses, >phone numbers and try to set a cookie. Also, you have to get approved for >access and it will take a couple days.

Why the registration? And why the approval? Why can’t ALL interested parties simply acces the site, and read the preliminary results? What are they afraid of? I personally do not wish to submit private information about myself. Israel Weber

Response:

Colin, Could you tell me more on this topic? I haven’t ever met a practitioner so I am curious about your statement that they "misrepresent scientific research". I thought that it wasn’t the researcher’s fault the study was compromised, but that the 2 groups happened to exchange information (therefore no double blind). So, I was under the impression they had no valid study, not that one that had been "invented". My recollection may be bad, but I thought that the study group had no measurable improvement (lung function tests) but there was a reduction in the amount of meds they felt they needed. There was some reference somewhere to someone who waited to long to go the hospital and almost didn’t make it but that most of the asthmatics felt they benefited. I didn’t get the impression to many felt they were cured though. Also, the person on TV was supposed to be some drug company person who converted. I think (?) that is the "fairly convincing TV documentary" they were talking about. I don’t know the position of the person who converted. If the person was in marketing, I would be less convinced than if he were an actual scientist with the company. You know what the problem is. They claim to cure so many diseases, they end up looking like medicine men. I would like to see a couple of really VALID studies just so we can more on. If you do learn to control your breathing and you are hyperventilating in an attack, wouldn’t just that control over the panic factor help?

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. >Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly >convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know >that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is >probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but >does the technique really not work? > Ask the practitioners for actual scientific evidence that it works. > Ask the practitioner why they have to misrepresent scientific research > in order to support their claims. Ask the practitioner why the > authors of the Brisbane trial had to _lie_ in order to get the paper > published. Ask them why they have been unable to prove their basic > theory – after 40+ years. Ask them why that had to go to a TV show > instead of simply conducting clinical trials that would either prove > or disprove the theory. > One of the favorite tricks of the fraudsters is to go straight to the > popular media (who are typically unable to evaluate their claims). > Whenever you seen anybody going to popular media instead of publishing > in peer-reviewed scientific journals – you can be sure that what they > are selling cannot withstand the scrutiny of people who really do > understand the subject. > — > "We are fighting today for security, for progress, > and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all > men, not only for one generation but for all > generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world > of ancient evils, ancient ills." > Franklin Delano Rosevelt > State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

> Well Buteyko worked for me and I am now in my 6th drug free year > after years of continual asthma medications, with nasty bonichal > infections. Prior to adult onset of asthma, I would have suffered > successively from hayfever, chronic rhinnitus and sinusitus. > There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and > Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. > Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed > at > www.asthma-research.org

Thankyou, thankyou, thankyou Anne. Finally the sort of reply I was hoping for! Now whether or not any of you sceptics are prepared to believe that Anne has genuinely benefitted from Buteyko is up to you, but I like the way she has been able to back up what she says with URL links (the aussie one didn’t work BTW:). I’ve now registered with the asthma-research site and will read the Notts Uni prelim trial results as soon as my registration is accepted. Thanks again Anne.

Response:

>I realise that I probably suffer from asthma a lot less than most people >who read/post to this newsgroup, (it’s now my turn to sympathise with people >like Steven), but I’m simply trying to investigate anything that might >enable me to enjoy a happier/ healthier lifestyle in the later years of my >life than I do now.

Well Buteyko worked for me and I am now in my 6th drug free year after years of continual asthma medications, with nasty bonichal infections. Prior to adult onset of asthma, I would have suffered successively from hayfever, chronic rhinnitus and sinusitus. There are two big trials of the method being conducted in England and Scotland that will hopefully soon be published. Preliminary results of the Nottingham University trial can be viewed at www.asthma-research.org They are being presented at a conference on respiratory medicine this month. The Glasgow trial is bigger and seems to be more promising but as yet no official report though the initial work has been completed. For those of you who want a good website to get more information For information on Buteyko Breathing Therapy provided by grateful users. http://www.wt.com.au/~pkolb/buteyko.htm Anne

Response:

> I did try Frolov endogenous breathing. > You breathe in through a chamber with a volume of about 250 cc and > having a water resistance in it giving a water head of a few > millimeters. This small pressure head might be quite critical for the > results.

At last! A reply from someone who either wrongly or rightly claims to have tried one of the methods I’ve been talking about, (depending on whether your prepared to believe him or not:). This is all I was asking for. Believe what you will of me, but I definitely did not start this discussion simply to start an argument. I as I have previously said…..I have had EIA for over forty years, and I’m willing to give anything a fair trial. I certainly don’t advocate anything as being a miracle cure. I’m simply not willing to dismiss something until I’ve done as much as I feel I can, to convince myself that it really doesn’t work. This is why I posted to this newsgroup. In the hope that I would get a lot of feedback from people who can really say, ‘Well I tried that, and it was a complete waste of time’ or ‘Yes, it’s brilliant and it really worked for me’. Yes I know that the Internet, (and particularly newsgroups), is one of the most corrupt environments on this planet, but I suppose what I was hoping for, was more positive feedback than negative. I realise that I probably suffer from asthma a lot less than most people who read/post to this newsgroup, (it’s now my turn to sympathise with people like Steven), but I’m simply trying to investigate anything that might enable me to enjoy a happier/ healthier lifestyle in the later years of my life than I do now. After all…..If I have to rest for 5 mins or so after just climbing a couple of flights of stairs, what am I going to be like in another 10-20 years? I like so many others, hate having to pump my body full of ’scientifically researched drugs’, just to be able to live some sort of a normal lifestyle, but if that’s the only alternative, (which I find difficult to believe), then so be it!

Response:

My experience with Buteyko was, on reflection, entirely disappointing. 1) The technique of curbing an attack of asthma by savagely reducing breathing (less hyperventilation) seems impressive in some cases, but does not seem to work by the way suggested by Dr. Buteyko. What in fact one does is to reduce upper chest breathing (comically called "deep breathing"), and this forces diaphragmatic breathing to take place without however moving the abdominal wall much. This would seem to explain relief in an attack. In any case the practice would seem to be dangerous. It is known that a reduced awareness of asthma symptoms can be a killer. Buteyko does not regularly recommend diaphragmatic breathing as such. On the contrary his messed up breathing terms and particularly the use of "deep" would seem to discourage it. It seems to be a question of getting people to build their own reality as pointed out by Colin. 2) Reducing hyperventilation does not put any sort of handle on asthma, as clinical tests have shown. A tendency to hyperventilate (lose too much carbon dioxide) seems to be due to a poor distribution of perfusion (blood supply) and ventilation in the lungs possibly expressed in atelectasis in an extreme form. This, to my mind, can be positively influenced by genuine diaphragmatic breathing, but not by trying to correct the asthmatic’s undue loss of carbon dioxide by breathing less, even although one should be aware that hyperventilation in asthma is not helpful. In other diseases such as diabetes it may be a life-saving defense tactic of the body, but just try telling a buteykoite about this! 3) Another basis of Buteyko is discouragement of a wrong but state-recommeded type of breathing exercise over-emphasizing upper chest breathing. This seems to be completely irrelevant in our day and age. Even if such exercises are recommended in schools, they would, one supposes, be done with a correct and healthy sensation of airflow in the nose. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. > Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly > convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know > that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is > probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but > does the technique really not work? > >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real > people’ > >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely > on testimonials. > If this is the case, then I would have thought that possibly 90% of all > marketed goods are fraudulent. You only have to look at any advert to see > that most rely on some sort of testimonial in order to improve sales. Very > little is sold on the basis of a ‘word of mouth’ recommendation from a > can’t believe anything that you see or read any more. I’m willing to bet > that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold bottle > of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, the > truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash

Response:

I did try Frolov endogenous breathing. You breathe in through a chamber with a volume of about 250 cc and having a water resistance in it giving a water head of a few millimeters. This small pressure head might be quite critical for the results. See http://www.intellectbreathing.com/images/Frolov2.jpg You breathe in briskly and then out as slowly as possible so as to get to a respiration cycle of 20, 30 , 40 … secs. Owing to the chamber you are breathing with a raised carbon dioxide concentration. Movement of the diaphragm is emphasized, but also outward movement of the abdomen wall. Fantastic claims are made, f. i. walking around while hardly breathing at all. Oxygen is supposed to come from degradation of substances in the body (endogenous or endogenic state), free radicals are supposed to be mopped up. Life is supposed to be extended. In view of the Russian or even Stalinist background with a different culture and the apparent attempt to use supposedly Taoist principles the whole thing looks a bit fishy to me. It does not seem to be a reasonable way of training diaphragmatic breathing. We all know that almost anything can be touted for asthma with some degree of commercial but unscientific success. For a sample of ancient Taoist text on breathing, see "The primordial breath", ISBN 0-944558-00-3, vol. 1 "Chapter VIII The Secret of Discarding the Breath The secret of discarding the breath is as follows: In order to discard the breath, the breath and the body have to be harmonious and peaceful, the mind and the soul have to be at ease and smooth. It can be done regardless of sitting down or lying down. Harmonize the breath according to the "door" and the "window" (nose and mouth method.) Whether you are in bed or sitting on a chair, you look thoughtless, still and tranquil. Make the mind identical to the great void. Undertake then to shut off ten or twenty breathings. Make sure there is no wrangling between the breath and the will. After a long time, the breath will exit naturally through the hundreds of hair pores rather than be exhaled. There may still be 10-20% (of the normal) breathing. Harmonize (the breath) again till you can reach 100% of such held-up breathings. If you can hold more than one hundred breathings, you can increase (the number.) Persist in the practice whether walking, standing, sitting or lying down. Just keep doing it diligently. The hundred joints then open up and communicate, the complexion is enriched and made pleasant, the breath is purified and after a good bath. Then you do it whenever the body is not harmonious. You will feel refreshed and pleasant. HUANG T CHING (the Yellow Court Canon) states, "Respecting action, both the (upper) HUN and the (lower) P’O soul peaceful. (My) clean and pure soul appears and converses with me." That is it." Buteyko seems to have a similar and even more extreme basis – an irresponsible and cultish attempt to use poorly understood notions taken from other cultures. Don’t be duped by the mystification. Regards, Richard Friedel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > I recieved a spam email this morning from someone who claims that by using a > device called the Frolov’s respiration training device and by doing 5 > daily exercises outlined in a book called ‘The 5 Secret Tibetan Rites of > Rejuvenation’, he had managed to turn his life around. He was 82 and his > picture made him look as if he was 40ish! Normally I just automatically bin > emails like this, but I decided to have a look at this one. It seems that > Frolov is another Russian Scientist who advocates that special breathing > techniques can help people with all kinds of illnesses including Asthma. I > guess these exercises are much the same as those taught in the Buteyko > Method (another clever dicky Russian Scientist:) > As a person who’s suffered from exercise induced bronchial asthma for 40 of > my 45 years, I’m wondering whether things such as special exercises and > breathing techniques can really help. The Frolov device cost’s 80usd which > seems a lot to me for a lump of plastic, but if it works I guess it would be > worth it! I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this > newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods > of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. I’ve just > recently been on a years clinical trial at hospital, where they tried me on > all sorts of different medications (both tablet and inhaled), none of which > seemed any better than the next one. I’m now on 200mg of salmetorol and as > many puffs (normally 4/day but have been told I can increase to 8), of > Flixotide as I feel I need. I don’t feel my Asthma is completely under > control and have become very sceptical about conventual medicine. I also > have a very chesty ‘productive’ cough which occasionally pops up from time > to time thoughout the day. > I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ > as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > Thanks > RayB

Response:

>Let’s not start yet another discussion with 10,000 posts on Buteyko >here. What’s done is done, and what has failed has failed.

What’s Buteyko? :)

Response:

>> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. >Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly >convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know >that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is >probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but >does the technique really not work?

Ask the practitioners for actual scientific evidence that it works. Ask the practitioner why they have to misrepresent scientific research in order to support their claims. Ask the practitioner why the authors of the Brisbane trial had to _lie_ in order to get the paper published. Ask them why they have been unable to prove their basic theory – after 40+ years. Ask them why that had to go to a TV show instead of simply conducting clinical trials that would either prove or disprove the theory. One of the favorite tricks of the fraudsters is to go straight to the popular media (who are typically unable to evaluate their claims). Whenever you seen anybody going to popular media instead of publishing in peer-reviewed scientific journals – you can be sure that what they are selling cannot withstand the scrutiny of people who really do understand the subject. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> snip >I’m willing to bet > that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold > bottle > of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, > the > truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash > You’ve just answered your own question. Why would you even think of > believing a "testimonial" about the undemonstrated effectiveness of any > unregulated product that is advertised as an asthma cure (not to mention all > the other scourges it is supposed to cure) that you received from an > anonymous poster on the internet?

If you read Ray Birch’s latest post, he (like so many other advocates of alternative med) has already made up his mind that the pharma companies are deliberately avoiding alternative remedies because they’re afraid of losing profits, blah-blah-blah. And that the doctors themselves won’t offer anything that doesn’t "conform to Western medicine," blah-blah-blah. This is conspiracy stuff out of sources like Gary Null. I am beginning to get the feeling that Ray is more of an advocate (looking to start an argument) than he is a patient looking for answers. I pointed him to the Google archive, he can search that and we can avoid starting yet another argument about Buteyko here. Let’s not start yet another discussion with 10,000 posts on Buteyko here. What’s done is done, and what has failed has failed. — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

> snip >I’m willing to bet > that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold bottle > of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, the > truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash

You’ve just answered your own question. Why would you even think of believing a "testimonial" about the undemonstrated effectiveness of any unregulated product that is advertised as an asthma cure (not to mention all the other scourges it is supposed to cure) that you received from an anonymous poster on the internet?

Response:

> I was under the impression that newsgroups were available for anybody to > read from anywhere in the world. My hope was that those reading > alt.support.asthma would have at least some sort of an interest in the > condition itself. I find it difficult to believe that of the thousands > (possibly millions) of people reading this, there aren’t one or two who have > tried some of ‘alternative method’, and can give an unbiased account on what > it’s done for them.

Have you heard of Google? It’s an archive of all past posts to alt.support.asthma. There have been many posts on alternative remedies. You can search for them. Butekyo has been discussed MANY MANY times. You don’t need to reinvent the wheel on this, Ray. I suffer from both chronic sinusitis and asthmatic bronchitis. Let me list the alternative remedies that did NOT work for me one bit: – Pycnogenol (proanthyocyanidin) – N-Acetyl Cysteine capsules – Echinacea – Papaya enzyme tablets – Omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) I hope that others will follow my example and list things that DIDN’T work, as a cautionary note for others. > I’ve read about the clinical trials done on the Buteyko method in Australia. > I haven’t read about any which have taken place since. Surely one of the > reasons why the medical profession is so unwilling to fully investigate > these so called ‘wonder cures’, is down to the fact that the drugs companies > will lose a vast fortune if they find that they really do work?

First of all, most medical research in this country is done by universities and teaching hospitals, not drug companies. You can search MedlinePlus, an archive of papers from medical journals, and you will see that alternative remedies HAVE been researched and experimented with. But so far, there is NOTHING that has proven safe and effective for asthma other than what mainstream medical doctors have already told you about. Second, the drug companies themselves are now marketing alternative remedies themselves: vitamins, herbs, etc. For example, you can find many herbal products under the well-known Centrum brand. Third, it’s a free marketplace. Anyone who has a real remedy that works, will either make a lot of money. Or (if they’re more interested in helping people) will become world-famous, be offered lectureships and posts at major hospitals and universities, etc. > I’m willing > to guess that another reason is down to the vanity which the medical > profession usually displays in ‘poo pooing’ anything which doesn’t conform > to conventional western medicine.

Western medicine is scientific. Science requires an objective hypothesis, a controlled experiment, and extensive testing. In fact, China and the Third World have embraced the scientific method now. Why should we in America, who pioneered so many advances based on it, want to give it up? Do you really think that the medical profession wouldn’t want to help you get better if they could? Ask your own doctors whether they "poo poo" something that looks promising but wasn’t developed in the Western world. Did they tell you that? It’s beginning to sound to me like you’ve already made up your mind. What convinced you that alternative medicine has so much to offer? What made you into such an advocate??? — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

> Forgive me, > but it sounds like you have a kind of double standard here. > You went for a controlled trial of conventional medicine.

I’m afraid I’ve probably mislead people here. The trial wasn’t really anything to do with the medicines themselves, it’s just that whilst I was undergoing the tests, the doctor decided to test me on a few different ones, (Singulair, INTAL etc) > Now you want to try all sorts of alternative remedies based on a few > testimonials??

I was under the impression that newsgroups were available for anybody to read from anywhere in the world. My hope was that those reading alt.support.asthma would have at least some sort of an interest in the condition itself. I find it difficult to believe that of the thousands (possibly millions) of people reading this, there aren’t one or two who have tried some of ‘alternative method’, and can give an unbiased account on what it’s done for them. (Yes I realise that what works for some won’t necessarily work for others). > Second, wouldn’t it make sense to ask whether there have been any > controlled trials of alternative remedies? > The fact that a remedy is "alternative" doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have > been rigorously tested for safety, at the very least, and effectiveness > if at all possible.

I’ve read about the clinical trials done on the Buteyko method in Australia. I haven’t read about any which have taken place since. Surely one of the reasons why the medical profession is so unwilling to fully investigate these so called ‘wonder cures’, is down to the fact that the drugs companies will lose a vast fortune if they find that they really do work? I’m willing to guess that another reason is down to the vanity which the medical profession usually displays in ‘poo pooing’ anything which doesn’t conform to conventional western medicine. RayB

Response:

> > Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. > Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly > convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know > that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is > probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but > does the technique really not work?

First, Ray, let me say how much I sympathize with you. My asthma is out of control and the doctors cannot help me because I have a chronic sinus infection that no one has been able to cure. But I recognize there’s no reason for me to go chasing after false hopes in alternative medicine, where no such hope exists. All doctors want their patients to get better. If there were real effective remedies for asthma out there, those remedies would be widely known and used. There are no "secret miracle treatments" for asthma. None. Believe me. The trick with a chronic illness like asthma, is to find a way to accept it and live with it. I’ve been to psychotherapists, and I’m still working on it. The right questions to ask are: 1. Is there any evidence that the technique works? 2. What is the technique based on? When Buteyko did his original research, we knew far less about the mechanisms of asthma than we do today. Today, we know that asthma is a chronic inflammation in the airways. Breathing exercises cannot do anything about that chronic inflammation. > >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real > people’ > >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely > on testimonials. > If this is the case, then I would have thought that possibly 90% of all > marketed goods are fraudulent….

No. Medicine is in a kind of special case. Because the Food & Drug Administration requires that a medicine be scientifically proven to be safe and effective for specific claimed illnesses, before it is allowed to be advertised and sold in the U.S. Consumer goods typically aren’t like that. If you have a medicine that cannot provably meet the FDA standard for safety and effectiveness, then you put a disclaimer on it like "This product is not intended to prevent, treat or cure any disease." And you rely on testimonials and word of mouth to sell it. — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > As a person who’s suffered from exercise induced bronchial asthma for 40 of > my 45 years, I’m wondering whether things such as special exercises and > breathing techniques can really help. The Frolov device cost’s 80usd which > seems a lot to me for a lump of plastic, but if it works I guess it would be > worth it! I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this > newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods > of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. I’ve just > recently been on a years clinical trial at hospital, where they tried me on > all sorts of different medications (both tablet and inhaled), none of which > seemed any better than the next one. I’m now on 200mg of salmetorol and as > many puffs (normally 4/day but have been told I can increase to 8), of > Flixotide as I feel I need. I don’t feel my Asthma is completely under > control and have become very sceptical about conventual medicine. I also > have a very chesty ‘productive’ cough which occasionally pops up from time > to time thoughout the day. > I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ > as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site.

Forgive me, but it sounds like you have a kind of double standard here. You went for a controlled trial of conventional medicine. Now you want to try all sorts of alternative remedies based on a few testimonials?? First, the failure of conventional medicine to help everyone, doesn’t make alternative medicine look any better. Alternative medicines have to stand on their own merits. Second, wouldn’t it make sense to ask whether there have been any controlled trials of alternative remedies? The fact that a remedy is "alternative" doesn’t mean it shouldn’t have been rigorously tested for safety, at the very least, and effectiveness if at all possible. — Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

> Actually, Buteyko is a known scam.

Really? Where does your evidence for this come from? There was a fairly convincing TV documemtory about the Buteyko method a year or so ago. I know that the amount which practitioners charge for teaching an exercise which is probably dead easy to learn by yourself is nothing short of extortion, but does the technique really not work? >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. > One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely > on testimonials.

If this is the case, then I would have thought that possibly 90% of all marketed goods are fraudulent. You only have to look at any advert to see that most rely on some sort of testimonial in order to improve sales. Very little is sold on the basis of a ‘word of mouth’ recommendation from a can’t believe anything that you see or read any more. I’m willing to bet that when you see a TV ad depicting Madonna slurping down an ice cold bottle of coke in a manner that would have you believe she lives off the stuff, the truth of the matter is she wouldn’t even use the stuff as a mouthwash

Response:

>Hi, >I recieved a spam email this morning from someone who claims that by using a >device called the Frolov’s respiration training device and by doing 5 >daily exercises outlined in a book called ‘The 5 Secret Tibetan Rites of >Rejuvenation’, he had managed to turn his life around. He was 82 and his >picture made him look as if he was 40ish! Normally I just automatically bin >emails like this, but I decided to have a look at this one. It seems that >Frolov is another Russian Scientist who advocates that special breathing >techniques can help people with all kinds of illnesses including Asthma. I >guess these exercises are much the same as those taught in the Buteyko >Method (another clever dicky Russian Scientist:)

Actually, Buteyko is a known scam. >I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ >as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site.

One of the signs of a fraud is if the people marketing the stuff rely on testimonials. — "We are fighting today for security, for progress, and for peace, not only for ourselves but for all men, not only for one generation but for all generations. We are fighting to cleanse the world of ancient evils, ancient ills." Franklin Delano Rosevelt State of the Union Address – 1942

Response:

> Hi, > …… >I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this > newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods > of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. > …..

I believe that you have just solved your own puzzlement with your last four words above. pavane

Response:

Hi, I recieved a spam email this morning from someone who claims that by using a device called the Frolov’s respiration training device and by doing 5 daily exercises outlined in a book called ‘The 5 Secret Tibetan Rites of Rejuvenation’, he had managed to turn his life around. He was 82 and his picture made him look as if he was 40ish! Normally I just automatically bin emails like this, but I decided to have a look at this one. It seems that Frolov is another Russian Scientist who advocates that special breathing techniques can help people with all kinds of illnesses including Asthma. I guess these exercises are much the same as those taught in the Buteyko Method (another clever dicky Russian Scientist:) As a person who’s suffered from exercise induced bronchial asthma for 40 of my 45 years, I’m wondering whether things such as special exercises and breathing techniques can really help. The Frolov device cost’s 80usd which seems a lot to me for a lump of plastic, but if it works I guess it would be worth it! I’m continually dumbfounded by the fact that whenever I read this newsgroup, there aren’t more people talking about these ‘alternative methods of treatment’, and singing their praises if they really work. I’ve just recently been on a years clinical trial at hospital, where they tried me on all sorts of different medications (both tablet and inhaled), none of which seemed any better than the next one. I’m now on 200mg of salmetorol and as many puffs (normally 4/day but have been told I can increase to 8), of Flixotide as I feel I need. I don’t feel my Asthma is completely under control and have become very sceptical about conventual medicine. I also have a very chesty ‘productive’ cough which occasionally pops up from time to time thoughout the day. I guess what I’m really looking for is ‘real testimonials from real people’ as I’m always inclined to disbelieve those posted on an advertisers site. Thanks RayB

Response:

Asthma & Fats

admin — Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Thought some of you might like to read the following. http://mercola.com/2002/aug/17/asthma.htm. — Cher "My mission is nutrition".

Response:

>Thought some of you might like to read the following. >http://mercola.com/2002/aug/17/asthma.htm.

Just more of that ‘Omega-3′ oil scam. I just love the way the site fails to mention that if you use the product in an attempt to treat disease – the product becomes a drug. So in effect they want us to stop using drugs that have been demonstrated to be safe and reliable in favor of a drug which has been demonstrated to be worthless for the treatment of asthma. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>>Thought some of you might like to read the following. >http://mercola.com/2002/aug/17/asthma.htm. >Just more of that ‘Omega-3′ oil scam. >I just love the way the site fails to mention that if you use the >product in an attempt to treat disease – the product becomes a drug. >So in effect they want us to stop using drugs that have been >demonstrated to be safe and reliable in favor of a drug which has been >demonstrated to be worthless for the treatment of asthma.

When Omega-3’s become mainstream, how are you going to resolve your attitude about scams? Is everything actually a "scam" to you until proven otherwise? Why not just say that there isn’t enough evidence yet, like you often do, and leave it at that?

Response:

>When Omega-3’s become mainstream, how are you going to resolve your >attitude about scams? Is everything actually a "scam" to you until >proven otherwise? Why not just say that there isn’t enough evidence >yet, like you often do, and leave it at that?

What do you mean: ‘when?’ BTW, you are aware that this stuff has been tested for its effects on asthma in clinical trials? And it failed? "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>What do you mean: ‘when?’ >BTW, you are aware that this stuff has been tested for its effects on >asthma in clinical trials? And it failed?

Would you be so kind as to post those trials? Let’s see the dosages they used for this determination.

Response:

> Just more of that ‘Omega-3′ oil scam.

Actually, Omega-3 oil is one of the few *essential* fatty acids. Essential because we need them and the human body cannot manufacture them. It is also the one most frequently deficient in the North American diet. If you would like some good info on fats, check out "Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill", Udo Erasmus ISBN 0-920470-38-6 There’s clearly some political bias and some commercial interest but the bio- and organic- chemistry is accurate and well researched. This is the best book we have found on the subject. He does mention asthma in several places but nowhere does he claim a direct cure. He discusses much on the effects of essential fatty acids on general health and certain specific degenerative diseases. He also gives numerous tables of the fat contents of many foods. Anicdotally, the condition and elasticity of my skin has very much improved since I started using some flax seed in my morning cereal. Note that our digestive system can’t get through the shell of the flax seed – you must attack them with a cofee grinder or pestle and mortar before adding them to your food. Ted

Response:

>>BTW, you are aware that this stuff has been tested for its effects on >asthma in clinical trials? And it failed? >Would you be so kind as to post those trials? Let’s see the dosages >they used for this determination.

Eur Respir J 1998 Feb;11(2):361-5 Effect of dietary intake of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids on severity of asthma in children. Hodge L, Salome CM, Hughes JM, Liu-Brennan D, Rimmer J, Allman M, Pang D, Armour C, Woolcock AJ. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>>>BTW, you are aware that this stuff has been tested for its effects on >>asthma in clinical trials? And it failed? >Would you be so kind as to post those trials? Let’s see the dosages >they used for this determination. >Eur Respir J 1998 Feb;11(2):361-5 >Effect of dietary intake of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids on >severity of asthma in children. >Hodge L, Salome CM, Hughes JM, Liu-Brennan D, Rimmer J, Allman M, Pang >D, Armour C, Woolcock AJ.

We are not told the dosages in this abstract you listed: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… However, here is a study which did list the dosages, which are still small, and they did see positive results: The present results suggest that dietary supplementation with fish oil rich in the omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid is beneficial for children with bronchial asthma in a strictly controlled environment in terms of inhalant allergens and diet. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… Here’s a study on improved pulmonary function and Omega-3’s: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&… There is much more work to do with Omega-3’s. Don’t count them out just yet.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>BTW, you are aware that this stuff has been tested for its effects on >>>asthma in clinical trials? And it failed? >>Would you be so kind as to post those trials? Let’s see the dosages >>they used for this determination. >Eur Respir J 1998 Feb;11(2):361-5 >Effect of dietary intake of omega-3 and omega-6 fatty acids on >severity of asthma in children. >Hodge L, Salome CM, Hughes JM, Liu-Brennan D, Rimmer J, Allman M, Pang >D, Armour C, Woolcock AJ. >We are not told the dosages in this abstract you listed: >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&…

If you want the full article, you can buy it. >However, here is a study which did list the dosages, which are still >small, and they did see positive results: >The present results suggest that dietary supplementation with fish oil >rich in the omega-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids eicosapentaenoic acid >and docosahexaenoic acid is beneficial for children with bronchial >asthma in a strictly controlled environment in terms of inhalant >allergens and diet. >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&… >Here’s a study on improved pulmonary function and Omega-3’s: >http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&… >There is much more work to do with Omega-3’s. Don’t count them out

But, until somebody states that they are "a safe and effective treatment for . . ." It _should_ be counted out. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>>There is much more work to do with Omega-3’s. Don’t count them out >But, until somebody states that they are "a safe and effective >treatment for . . ." It _should_ be counted out.

I suspect that you don’t take any Omega-3’s, do you. You do have allergic triggers to your asthma, right? These are nutrients Colin, not synthetic drugs with powerful effects that require the necessary safety testing you are suggesting.

Response:

>I suspect that you don’t take any Omega-3’s, do you. >You do have allergic triggers to your asthma, right? >These are nutrients Colin, not synthetic drugs with powerful effects >that require the necessary safety testing you are suggesting.

The moment I use it in an attempt to treat or prevent any specific disease – it becomes a drug. I am surprised that you seem to be unaware that a ‘drug’ is _anything_ that is ingested or applied as a treatment or prophylactic for a disease. And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not necessary. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>The moment I use it in an attempt to treat or prevent any specific >disease – it becomes a drug.

The moment you use it, your body benefits. Omega-3’s are essential nutrients. Let’s talk reality here. >I am surprised that you seem to be unaware that a ‘drug’ is _anything_ >that is ingested or applied as a treatment or prophylactic for a >disease.

I am very aware of that semantic confusion that exists regarding the definition of "drug." It’s a lawyer’s fight. Your body knows the difference between a nutrient and a drug. It doesn’t need the FDA to tell it that. I am speaking specifically of Omega-3’s now, not all alternative products. >And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not >necessary.

Uh huh. If you were asymptomatic, I’d be more inclined to agree with you. . It seems to me that you are arguing for your limitations with this unbrella statement. Your diet may be sensible, but is it adequate for your particular health needs? Only you can determine that; not some study of (n=29) subjects that can be referenced as proof or disproof. The anti-inflammatory effects of Omega-3’s are known. There are studies that show that they help with asthma symptoms. Nothing about a cure is mentioned here. If you could reduce your symptoms with taking Omega-3’s, which have been shown to have no adverse side-effects, why wouldn’t you explore this safe avenue of approach? You might even be able to get by on less meds as well. Is that not desirable?

Response:

Now that’s just about one of the silliest things I’ve ever heard.. You don’t REALLY believe that, do you? Surely not! Nutrition (food) IS the original medicine. That would make everything we eat including Mom’s chicken soup a drug! Wasn’t it Hippocrates (the Father of Medicine) who said, "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food"? > I am surprised that you seem to be unaware that a ‘drug’ is _anything_ > that is ingested or applied as a treatment or prophylactic for a > disease. > And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not > necessary.

Is this a joke? Where’s the hidden camera? — Cher "My mission is nutrition". To hear discussion on health issues/alt. treatment. http://www.royaltonganlimu.com/english/content.asp?page_id=13 7/22 and 7/29

Response:

>Claptrap Colin is the joke. Colin is essentially a megalomaniacal imbecile, >with an ego as big as all outdoors, who provides nothing to this Newsgroup of >any redeeming value whatsoever… he’s like a friggin’ broken record, with the >same old-same old inane claptrap over and over.

I disagree. Colin’s views are representative of the "Doubting Thomas," and the distinctions he makes regarding "proven" and "unproven" agents, nutrients, etc. are valid in the scientific sense and the legal sense; just not always in common sense. You Sheldon, on the other hand, defy explanation.

Response:

>>The moment I use it in an attempt to treat or prevent any specific >disease – it becomes a drug. >The moment you use it, your body benefits. Omega-3’s are essential >nutrients. Let’s talk reality here.

This is onl;y possible if my diet were deficient. If that were the case, it would make more sense to fix the diet than take a pill. >I am surprised that you seem to be unaware that a ‘drug’ is _anything_ >that is ingested or applied as a treatment or prophylactic for a >disease. >I am very aware of that semantic confusion that exists regarding the >definition of "drug." It’s a lawyer’s fight. Your body knows the >difference between a nutrient and a drug. It doesn’t need the FDA to >tell it that. I am speaking specifically of Omega-3’s now, not all >alternative products.

How does my body ‘know the difference?’ Does the liver process the chemicals differently? The kidneys? >And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not >necessary. >Uh huh. If you were asymptomatic, I’d be more inclined to agree with >you.

This is a surprising comment. For all the time you have hung around this newsgroup you still think that asthma is caused by nutritional deficiency? >. >It seems to me that you are arguing for your limitations with this >unbrella statement. Your diet may be sensible, but is it adequate for >your particular health needs? Only you can determine that; not some >study of (n=29) subjects that can be referenced as proof or disproof.

It is adequate. It may not be adequately transferring the contents of my wallet to the alt med people – but that is their problem, not mine. >The anti-inflammatory effects of Omega-3’s are known. There are >studies that show that they help with asthma symptoms. Nothing about >a cure is mentioned here. If you could reduce your symptoms with >taking Omega-3’s, which have been shown to have no adverse >side-effects, why wouldn’t you explore this safe avenue of approach?

First of all, the anti-inflammitory effects are not ‘well known.’ The next issue is that you cannot reduce inflammation without the risk of side effects. Inflammation is an immune response that is designed to protect the body from infection. Thus, anything that reduces inflammation is going to reduce the effectiveness of this protective mechanism. >You might even be able to get by on less meds as well. Is that not >desirable?

Not ‘less meds’ simply different meds. Again, anything I use for the purpose of treating disease is a medication. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>> The moment I use it in an attempt to treat or prevent any specific > disease – it becomes a drug. >Now that’s just about one of the silliest things I’ve ever heard.. You don’t >REALLY believe that, do you? Surely not! > Nutrition (food) IS the original medicine. That would make everything we >eat including Mom’s chicken soup a drug! > Wasn’t it Hippocrates (the Father of Medicine) who said, "Let food be thy >medicine and medicine be thy food"?

Do you eat the chicken soup to treat a disease? Or do you eat it as _food_? This is where the dividing line exists. If you eat it for general nutrition and not as a treatment for any specific disease, then it is a food. > And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not > necessary. >Is this a joke? Where’s the hidden camera?

No, not a joke. It really is a fact that (for people without a doctor-diagnosed medical condition that dictates otherwise) you get all the nutrition you need from a balanced diet. Everything else is simply hype from the people trying to sell supplements. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>I disagree. Colin’s views are representative of the "Doubting >Thomas," and the distinctions he makes regarding "proven" and >"unproven" agents, nutrients, etc. are valid in the scientific sense >and the legal sense; just not always in common sense.

‘Common sense?’ If ‘common sense’ thinks that you can have an anti-inflammitory drug without side effects – then I will stick to actual knowledge, thank you. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> The moment I use it in an attempt to treat or prevent any specific >> disease – it becomes a drug. >Now that’s just about one of the silliest things I’ve ever heard.. You don’t >REALLY believe that, do you? Surely not! > Nutrition (food) IS the original medicine. That would make everything we >eat including Mom’s chicken soup a drug! > Wasn’t it Hippocrates (the Father of Medicine) who said, "Let food be thy >medicine and medicine be thy food"? > Do you eat the chicken soup to treat a disease? Or do you eat it as > _food_? > This is where the dividing line exists. If you eat it for general > nutrition and not as a treatment for any specific disease, then it is > a food.

Chicken soup is chicken soup, regardless of why I’m taking it. It’s not a drug…at least not in my opinion. >> And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not >> necessary. >Is this a joke? Where’s the hidden camera? > No, not a joke. It really is a fact that (for people without a > doctor-diagnosed medical condition that dictates otherwise) you get > all the nutrition you need from a balanced diet. Everything else is > simply hype from the people trying to sell supplements.

I know many folks believe this…but I’m of another opinion. By the way…do you eat 5 servings of fresh veggies and 5 servings of fresh fruit everyday? Just curious. — Cher "My mission is nutrition". To hear discussion on health issues/alt. treatment. http://www.royaltonganlimu.com/english/content.asp?page_id=13 7/22 and 7/29

Response:

>>The moment you use it, your body benefits. Omega-3’s are essential >nutrients. Let’s talk reality here. >This is onl;y possible if my diet were deficient. If that were the >case, it would make more sense to fix the diet than take a pill.

You are thinking of nutrients as drugs. Nutrients are needed on an ongoing basis to sustain your life’s physiology. Omega-3’s are essential; you must ingest them on a regular basis. If you are eating Salmon or other Omega-3-containing substances on a daily basis, you might approach the effectiveness of using good quality Omega-3 capsules. Salmon costs about $8.00/lb. That’s expensive if you are going to eat it 3-4 days per week, which of course, no one does. >How does my body ‘know the difference?’ Does the liver process the >chemicals differently? The kidneys?

Give your body a little credit for crying out loud! Whatever you ingest your body assimilates, utilizes and excretes based on the biochemical pathways that are mapped in the genes and mediated by the nervous system. >And since I eat a sensible diet – nutritional supplementation is not >>necessary. >Uh huh. If you were asymptomatic, I’d be more inclined to agree with >you. >This is a surprising comment. For all the time you have hung around >this newsgroup you still think that asthma is caused by nutritional >deficiency?

Absolutely not! You like to believe I think that nutritional deficiency causes asthma, but you have not read that from any of my posts. Increasing the nutritional titer of many substances helps the body to better adapt; thereby helping many conditions. Not treating, but helping the body to better heal itself. This is a huge distinction. >The anti-inflammatory effects of Omega-3’s are known. There are >studies that show that they help with asthma symptoms. Nothing about >a cure is mentioned here. If you could reduce your symptoms with >taking Omega-3’s, which have been shown to have no adverse >side-effects, why wouldn’t you explore this safe avenue of approach? >First of all, the anti-inflammitory effects are not ‘well known.’ The >next issue is that you cannot reduce inflammation without the risk of >side effects. Inflammation is an immune response that is designed to >protect the body from infection. Thus, anything that reduces >inflammation is going to reduce the effectiveness of this protective >mechanism.

I didn’t say that the anti-inflammatory effects were ‘well known.’ I said they were known. And I also said that we need much more research to better determine the beneficial effects of Omega-3’s. When you aid the body through nutritional means to better enable it to adapt to its environment, it is not the same as artificially inducing an anti-inflammatory effect with a foreign chemical substance, ie. a drug. Please realize that there is a distinction between these two avenues of approach. They are not mutually exclusive as methods of managing health. >You might even be able to get by on less meds as well. Is that not >desirable? >Not ‘less meds’ simply different meds. Again, anything I use for the >purpose of treating disease is a medication.

OK, so if you somehow get trapped in your tank on a deserted island, and all you have to eat is fish, you will be gettting your Omega-3’s, but soon you will develop scurvy. So when I paddle up on my surfboard and offer you an orange, am I now giving you a drug, or a nutrient? Or both? P.S. "Don’t shoot!"

Response:

>>I disagree. Colin’s views are representative of the "Doubting >Thomas," and the distinctions he makes regarding "proven" and >"unproven" agents, nutrients, etc. are valid in the scientific sense >and the legal sense; just not always in common sense. >’Common sense?’ If ‘common sense’ thinks that you can have an >anti-inflammitory drug without side effects – then I will stick to >actual knowledge, thank you.

Stick to your guns you mean. The knowledge is there that true health only comes from within the body. We may not be ill striclty due to various nutrient deficiencies, but one thing is for sure; we are not ill because we have various drug deficiencies.

Response:

>> Do you eat the chicken soup to treat a disease? Or do you eat it as > _food_? > This is where the dividing line exists. If you eat it for general > nutrition and not as a treatment for any specific disease, then it is > a food. >Chicken soup is chicken soup, regardless of why I’m taking it. It’s not a >drug…at least not in my opinion.

Then anything is and drug – and nothing is a drug? > No, not a joke. It really is a fact that (for people without a > doctor-diagnosed medical condition that dictates otherwise) you get > all the nutrition you need from a balanced diet. Everything else is > simply hype from the people trying to sell supplements. >I know many folks believe this…but I’m of another opinion. By the >way…do you eat 5 servings of fresh veggies and 5 servings of fresh fruit >everyday? Just curious.

Not ‘belief’ – simple fact. Talk to a Registered Dietitian. Why yes I get the number of servings (generally multiple ’servings’ at once since the ’serving’ size is kind of small). It really is not that hard to do. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

>You are thinking of nutrients as drugs. Nutrients are needed on an >ongoing basis to sustain your life’s physiology. Omega-3’s are >essential; you must ingest them on a regular basis. If you are eating >Salmon or other Omega-3-containing substances on a daily basis, you >might approach the effectiveness of using good quality Omega-3 >capsules. Salmon costs about $8.00/lb. That’s expensive if you are >going to eat it 3-4 days per week, which of course, no one does.

What is the RDA for Omega-3? How was this determined? Or is it just marketing hype? >How does my body ‘know the difference?’ Does the liver process the >chemicals differently? The kidneys? >Give your body a little credit for crying out loud! Whatever you >ingest your body assimilates, utilizes and excretes based on the >biochemical pathways that are mapped in the genes and mediated by the >nervous system.

Please answer the question. >This is a surprising comment. For all the time you have hung around >this newsgroup you still think that asthma is caused by nutritional >deficiency? >Absolutely not! You like to believe I think that nutritional >deficiency causes asthma, but you have not read that from any of my >posts. Increasing the nutritional titer of many substances helps the >body to better adapt; thereby helping many conditions. Not treating, >but helping the body to better heal itself. This is a huge >distinction.

In that case I suggest that you learn something about asthma. >When you aid the body through nutritional means to better enable it to >adapt to its environment, it is not the same as artificially inducing >an anti-inflammatory effect with a foreign chemical substance, ie. a >drug.

Really? Has anybody ever tested this hypothesis? >Please realize that there is a distinction between these two avenues >of approach. They are not mutually exclusive as methods of managing >health.

We have one approach that is based on careful research and study and we have another that is based on folklore, psuedoscience and advertising hype. "It’s not American foreign policy, or the plight of the Palestinians, or America’s longstanding support for Israel. A group of people with money and weaponry have simply decided that we, as a civilization, are unfit to live, and want, eventally, to exterminate us." ‘Christian Century’ magazine

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>I disagree. Colin’s views are representative of the "Doubting >>Thomas," and the distinctions he makes regarding "proven" and >>"unproven" agents, nutrients, etc. are valid in the scientific sense >>and the legal sense; just not always in common sense. >’Common sense?’ If ‘common sense’ thinks that you can have an >anti-inflammitory drug without side effects – then I will stick to >actual knowledge, thank you. > Stick to your guns you mean. The knowledge is there that true health > only comes from within the body. We may not be ill striclty due to > various nutrient deficiencies, but one thing is for sure; we are not > ill because we have various drug deficiencies.

AMEN to that! Cher

Response:

Asthma and Smoking?

admin — Sat, 10 Aug 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

>Susan, please try to bottom-post–It takes a while to get a handle on the >thread when it gets so cluttered. > Having trouble? > http://americanreadingglasses.com/

I don’t need them–you’ve always managed to make a spectacle of yourself here.

Response:

>I don’t need them–you’ve always managed to make a spectacle of yourself >here.

I can’t see arguing with you.

Response:

If you had kept smoking you might now be carrying Oxygen around all day. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > How long is long? I smoked for at least 10 years and I have asthma and I > almost have a year now, and I still have trouble breathing when I walk long > distances. I’m also in high altitude. > Debbie > f3as3 > Eleven months, two weeks, 16 hours, 0 minutes and 34 seconds. 10460 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,569.00. Life saved: 5 weeks, 1 day, 7 > hours, 40 minutes. > > Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the > last > > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the > air > > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting > daily > > attacks. > > Any other thoughts? > > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but > ill > > copy it to support.stop.smoking. > It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking > paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will > not > regrow. > So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s > no bringing them back. > > any other thoughts would be appreciated. > > Fox > > > Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > > > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my > asthma > > > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer > in > > use > > > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been > > exaggerated. > > > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking > but > > > the opposite seems to have happened! > > > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post > smoking > > and > > > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung > > function > > > back. > > > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off > smoking!! > > > Fox

– Amazing Grace’s Eclectic Quotation Collection *93,000 quotations, proverbs, by people of all philosophies, ages and cultures. For more info. or free sample of one category, send a personal . . . Grace McGarvie . . . . . Plymouth,Mn. 55447 U.S.A.

Response:

>I don’t need them–you’ve always managed to make a spectacle of yourself >here. > I can’t see arguing with you.

That’s a transparent reply, and a trifle unfocused. Perhaps you should have framed it differently. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> Susan, please try to bottom-post–It takes a while to get a handle on the > thread when it gets so cluttered.

Hi Susan, I do not care if you top or bottom post, in fact I find top posting easier to deal with. If you, and I mean IF, want to change to bottom posting it is really easy. Click on edit and select Preferences. Under preferences click on Mail & Newsgroups, them click on messages. To the right there will be a drop-down menu where you can select where you want your reply to appear, above or below. If you are interested, I hope that this will help. sue

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Susan, please try to bottom-post–It takes a while to get a handle on the > thread when it gets so cluttered. > Hi Susan, > I do not care if you top or bottom post, in fact I find top posting > easier to deal with. If you, and I mean IF, want to change to bottom > posting it is really easy. Click on edit and select Preferences. Under > preferences click on Mail & Newsgroups, them click on messages. To the > right there will be a drop-down menu where you can select where you want > your reply to appear, above or below. If you are interested, I hope that > this will help.

What newsreader are you referring to? I don"t think you can do that with OE. — CBI, MD

Response:

>> >I don’t need them–you’ve always managed to make a spectacle of yourself > >here. > I can’t see arguing with you. >That’s a transparent reply, and a trifle unfocused. Perhaps you should have >framed it differently.

Very well; I shall dilate myopic view and work on a revision… Look, I have trouble watching you brow-beat Susan. However, as the eyes have it, you are on the lookout for top posting, and I, for one, cannot see visualizing a blinkety-blink argument over such a short sighted issue.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Susan, please try to bottom-post–It takes a while to get a handle on > the > > thread when it gets so cluttered. > Hi Susan, > I do not care if you top or bottom post, in fact I find top posting > easier to deal with. If you, and I mean IF, want to change to bottom > posting it is really easy. Click on edit and select Preferences. Under > preferences click on Mail & Newsgroups, them click on messages. To the > right there will be a drop-down menu where you can select where you want > your reply to appear, above or below. If you are interested, I hope that > this will help. > What newsreader are you referring to? > I don"t think you can do that with OE.

I am using netscape, don’t know much about OE. sue

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> >I don’t need them–you’ve always managed to make a spectacle of yourself >> >here. >> I can’t see arguing with you. >That’s a transparent reply, and a trifle unfocused. Perhaps you should have >framed it differently. > Very well; I shall dilate myopic view and work on a revision… > Look, I have trouble watching you brow-beat Susan. However, as the > eyes have it, you are on the lookout for top posting, and I, for one, > cannot see visualizing a blinkety-blink argument over such a short > sighted issue.

I don’t wish to incur lashes over my preceding in-macula conception, but no pupil of human nature could doubt that it was taken out of cortex. It doesn’t take a visionary to see that I’m leer-y about this entire thread, and fovea information, Iris that I had never mentioned it.

Response:

>I don’t need them–you’ve always managed to make a spectacle of yourself >here.

He is a showboat.

Response:

>It doesn’t take a visionary to see that I’m leer-y about this entire thread, >and fovea information, Iris that I had never mentioned it.

Hind-sight is 20/20, and maybe you occular stare clear of a fuzzy viewpoint with no end in sight. See?

Response:

>It doesn’t take a visionary to see that I’m leer-y about this entire thread, >and fovea information, Iris that I had never mentioned it. > Hind-sight is 20/20, and maybe you occular stare clear of a fuzzy > viewpoint with no end in sight. See?

Si.

Response:

That is exactly what my doctor told me. Thanks. Debbie f3as3 Eleven months, two weeks, two days, 21 hours, 22 minutes and 12 seconds. 10526 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,579.01. Life saved: 5 weeks, 1 day, 13 hours, 10 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If you had kept smoking you might now be carrying Oxygen around all day. > How long is long? I smoked for at least 10 years and I have asthma and I > almost have a year now, and I still have trouble breathing when I walk long > distances. I’m also in high altitude. > Debbie > f3as3 > Eleven months, two weeks, 16 hours, 0 minutes and 34 seconds. 10460 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,569.00. Life saved: 5 weeks, 1 day, 7 > hours, 40 minutes. > > > Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the > > last > > > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the > > air > > > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > > > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting > daily > > > attacks. > > > Any other thoughts? > > > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > > > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > > > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but > ill > > > copy it to support.stop.smoking. > > It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking > > paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will > not > > regrow. > > So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s > > no bringing them back. > > > any other thoughts would be appreciated. > > > Fox > > > > Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > > > > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my > > asthma > > > > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer > in > > > use > > > > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been > > > exaggerated. > > > > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking > > but > > > > the opposite seems to have happened! > > > > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post > smoking > > > and > > > > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung > > > function > > > > back. > > > > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off > smoking!! > > > > Fox > — > Amazing Grace’s Eclectic Quotation Collection > *93,000 quotations, proverbs, by people of all philosophies, ages and > cultures. For more info. or free sample of one category, send a personal > . . . Grace McGarvie . . . > . . Plymouth,Mn. 55447 U.S.A.

Response:

> > The way it was explained to me is that it feels like it is getting worse but > what is happening is your addiction to cigarettes and their polutants have > to take time to get out of your system. UM MOM Susan > That is, of course, true of most of the discomfort after stopping smoking. > The gentleman was talking about increased wheezing, to which this > observation cannot apply. > Larry

Smoking and asthma. From what I have read. Comments please! While many mild asthmatics have discovered that cigarette smoking suppresses their asthma, I would like to point out what they are really doing to their lungs. The fact that COPD is usually attributed to smoking is a well established. Lung cancer is also a high risk possibility due to persistent tissue cell damage. The products drawn from a lighted cigarette includes over 4000 different gasses and particles at high temperature. Among the gasses are water vapor, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, ammonia, and many other more complex molecules. These particulates are even more numerous as many carbonacious compounds are produced by oxidising and breaking down the biological material in tobacco leaf. The important thing to note here is the small size of these particles which average 0.25 of a micron. A human hair averages about 8.0 microns diameter so is 32 times larger. The small size of particulates and gasses greatly assists their penetration of the broncho-trachial tree and fast tracking into the blood. That is why smoking is a popular means of drug consumption, nicotine and other mind altering molecules are addictive. The lung is a filter of the wet surface type. Its efficiency in this function is improved enormously by the warmth of the airway surface and the normal presence of cilia. These are small hair like protrusions that beat in a rhythmical mexican like wave that moves towards the trachea. The warm moist surface creates a blanket of water vapor close to the surface that interacts with particles in a special way. Particulates in the cooler inspired air present as condensation neuclei to this vapor. Condensation rapidly forms on these particles growing them in size. The cilia slow their movement and minimise their bouncing off the surfaces so that they are captured in a layer of mucus. This mucus then clears these materials from the airways by riding the ciliated wave towards the throat where it is usually swallowed. Smoking absolutely dissrupts this wonderful filter because the inhaled gasses are hot and condensation then does not occur. The majority of particles remain small and deeply penetrating. The effect on respiratory symptoms is masked by the moisture content in these inhaled gasses. Particles therefore penetrate almost unhindered to the alveoli where the most damage occurs. Type II cells that are the progenitors of the type I membrane cells are damaged and die. This destroys the lungs ability to control hydration a type II cell function, again the moisture in the cigarette gasses masks this function while smoking continues. Eventually when the smoker decides to quit, much confusion arises when respiratory problems due to this damage soon becomes evident. Bill Whitbourn, Student of the lung.

Response:

> High altitude could be adding a lot to your problems. UM MOM Susan

Susan, please try to bottom-post–It takes a while to get a handle on the thread when it gets so cluttered.

Response:

> When does the cila (sp?)

Cilium singular, cilia plural (usual).

Response:

>Susan, please try to bottom-post–It takes a while to get a handle on the >thread when it gets so cluttered.

Having trouble? http://americanreadingglasses.com/

Response:

So how long do they take to regrow – anyone know? Fox QOF —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know I’m cross posting, and I apologize in advance, but the cilia do > regrow. Here is a link from the University of Michigan. Check out > the 1 to 9 months section. I know I’ve read it elsewhere, but this is > the first link I found … the body does undo most of the damage from > smoking in time. Not all, but most. Quitting is VERY worth it. :-) > http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/subabuse/tobacc09.htm > BTW, when I was diagnosed with hyperventilation, the doctor did 1) a > simple finger prick blood test for oxygen levels (which were normal) > 2) a lab blood test for CO2 levels and blood pH and 3) a chest x-ray > (which was clean). It is frightening to feel as if you can’t breath, > and if I were you I would talk to a doctor to rule out a serious > disorder, just so that you can ease your mind and focus on treating > this, and just in case. Meanwhile, look diaphragmatic breathing on > Google. It might help. It has helped me a LOT. up Good Luck. > Diane M. /back to NOT cross posting > > Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the > last > > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the > air > > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting daily > > attacks. > > Any other thoughts? > > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but ill > > copy it to support.stop.smoking. > It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking > paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will not > regrow. > So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s > no bringing them back. > > any other thoughts would be appreciated. > > Fox

Response:

High altitude could be adding a lot to your problems. UM MOM Susan

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How long is long? I smoked for at least 10 years and I have asthma and I > almost have a year now, and I still have trouble breathing when I walk long > distances. I’m also in high altitude. > Debbie > f3as3 > Eleven months, two weeks, 16 hours, 0 minutes and 34 seconds. 10460 > cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,569.00. Life saved: 5 weeks, 1 day, 7 > hours, 40 minutes. > > Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the > last > > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the > air > > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting > daily > > attacks. > > Any other thoughts? > > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but > ill > > copy it to support.stop.smoking. > It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking > paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will > not > regrow. > So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s > no bringing them back. > > any other thoughts would be appreciated. > > Fox > > > Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > > > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my > asthma > > > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer > in > > use > > > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been > > exaggerated. > > > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking > but > > > the opposite seems to have happened! > > > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post > smoking > > and > > > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung > > function > > > back. > > > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off > smoking!! > > > Fox

Response:

writes >Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the last >week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the air >ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just >getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting daily >attacks. >Any other thoughts? >When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the >start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? >Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but ill >copy it to support.stop.smoking. >any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Visit your doctor, if only for peace of mind. Do you have a peak flow meter? If so, do you use it? It may be your asthma medication needs further adjustment. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Fox > Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my asthma > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer in >use > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been >exaggerated. > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking but > the opposite seems to have happened! > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post smoking >and > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung >function > back. > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off smoking!! > Fox

– Five Cats

Response:

> Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the last > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the air > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting daily > attacks. > Any other thoughts? > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but ill > copy it to support.stop.smoking.

It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will not regrow. So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s no bringing them back. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> any other thoughts would be appreciated. > Fox > Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my asthma > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer in > use > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been > exaggerated. > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking but > the opposite seems to have happened! > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post smoking > and > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung > function > back. > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off smoking!! > Fox

Response:

One can’t make a diagnosis at this distance, but what you describe is characteristic of hyperventilation syndrome. Try Googling that condition; I’m sure you will read of that set of symptoms. Larry

Response:

I know I’m cross posting, and I apologize in advance, but the cilia do regrow. Here is a link from the University of Michigan. Check out the 1 to 9 months section. I know I’ve read it elsewhere, but this is the first link I found … the body does undo most of the damage from smoking in time. Not all, but most. Quitting is VERY worth it. :-) http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/subabuse/tobacc09.htm BTW, when I was diagnosed with hyperventilation, the doctor did 1) a simple finger prick blood test for oxygen levels (which were normal) 2) a lab blood test for CO2 levels and blood pH and 3) a chest x-ray (which was clean). It is frightening to feel as if you can’t breath, and if I were you I would talk to a doctor to rule out a serious disorder, just so that you can ease your mind and focus on treating this, and just in case. Meanwhile, look diaphragmatic breathing on Google. It might help. It has helped me a LOT. up Good Luck. Diane M. /back to NOT cross posting – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the > last > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the > air > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting daily > attacks. > Any other thoughts? > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but ill > copy it to support.stop.smoking. > It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking > paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will not > regrow. > So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s > no bringing them back. > any other thoughts would be appreciated. > Fox

Response:

How long is long? I smoked for at least 10 years and I have asthma and I almost have a year now, and I still have trouble breathing when I walk long distances. I’m also in high altitude. Debbie f3as3 Eleven months, two weeks, 16 hours, 0 minutes and 34 seconds. 10460 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,569.00. Life saved: 5 weeks, 1 day, 7 hours, 40 minutes.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the > last > week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the > air > ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just > getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting daily > attacks. > Any other thoughts? > When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the > start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? > Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but ill > copy it to support.stop.smoking. > It’s the cilia in your bronchial tubes you have to worry about. Smoking > paralyzes them and if you smoked for a very long time they die and will not > regrow. > So, if they’re only paralyzed they will revive but if they’re dead there’s > no bringing them back. > any other thoughts would be appreciated. > Fox > > Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my > asthma > > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer in > use > > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been > exaggerated. > > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking > but > > the opposite seems to have happened! > > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post smoking > and > > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung > function > > back. > > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off smoking!! > > Fox

Response:

Thank you for your replies, the symptoms have changed slightly over the last week with now often feeling like there is just not enough oxygen in the air ie mild suffocation. My chest and tubes feel free and normal but im just getting this craving for oxygen. Its not all the time but im getting daily attacks. Any other thoughts? When does the cila (sp?) in your lungs start to regrow, could it be the start of this process? or should this be complete at 3 months? Im not sure that this thread is really relative to this newsgroup but ill copy it to support.stop.smoking. any other thoughts would be appreciated. Fox

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi hope you can help a newbie here. After finally giving up smoking (3 > months) after years of mild asthma suddenly over this last week my asthma > has got worse. It feels like the bottom end of my lungs are no longer in use > and the classic "breathing out against a brick wall.." has been exaggerated. > I was told that my lung function would improve after giving up smoking but > the opposite seems to have happened! > I was wondering if anyone else had had experiences of this post smoking and > whether I will in time get my previous better (if not perfect) lung function > back. > I know its stupid but at the moment it seems I was better off smoking!! > Fox

Response:

Progress Report: my resistant sinus infection

admin — Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> The Mayo Clinic believes that most chronic sinusitis is caused by a > FUNGAL infection. And unlike you, they have done that research > already. They recovered fungi from over 90% of chronic sinusitis > patients.

But most ENTs outside of the Mayo Clinic don’t seem to agree with their findings. And has the Mayo treatment (which you were on, and stopped) helped anyone?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > John, if I were you I would not take the (metacholine) test. I find it a > little strange that > > people trust test results (which are always subject to error) over > symptoms, > > when those tests became recognized and useful only because they were > correlated > > with symptoms. > > BL > Thanks for the advice. > I had enough of tests and medicines. > In that case, I would appreciate it if you would remove the > conspiracy-theory nonsense from your website. > It’s plain silly for you to state that the entire medical community > (including all the teaching hospitals worldwide) says that asthma is > incurable because the pharma companies have a vested interest in selling > meds.

Well, this sure gets me sermonizing once again. The asthma situation is unusual because of the "asthma definition" first called into existence in a symposium held under the auspices of Ciba-Geigy 1959 and renewed from time to time. The role of inflammation is emphasized. My experience is that if I effectively and presumably normally breathe with my diaphragm attacks and EIA are not possible. At any rate diaphragm dysfunction is considered in mainstream medicine to play substantial role in asthma. The approach of the asthma and ENT docs to nature must be considered unusual. Firstly, resistance to airflow in the nose: Authors often referred to a book on the physiology of the upper airways by P. J. Mink (1920, in German). He now seems to have been forgotten but his interpretation remains. On the narrowing of the nostrils during exertion he concluded that this was a "collapse" and a failure of nature. He recommended something like the 3M breathe right strips for mountain climbing etc. It just seems that a more subtle process of interpretation in the same style as Richard Attenborough in his TV films on birds etc. would be to look for some hidden, useful purpose in the narrowing of the nostrils. Actually, breathing with minimized resistance in the upper airways (coughing position) hardly seems possible at all and classical breathing exercises are aborted (see posting on "Quackery in medicine: pulmonology and spirometry" on alt.skeptic, May-11). Also the work on SIMT shows that an external resistance is beneficial for asthmatics. The resistance increases the inhaled volume. Therefore a conclusion that nasal resistance boosts respiration in some circumstances seems as fair as any and is food for thought. (Carl Sagan: spin some alternative theory). On the doings of nasal surgeons, see the crocodile’s tears on: http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/grand/72194.html "NASAL OBSTRUCTION: THE NASAL VALVES July 21, 1994 Andrew L. de Jong, M.D. In most regions of the human body, the famous edict of Mies van der Rohe holds true — "form follows function." However, the reverse applies to rhinology: function is almost solely dependent on form. A troublesome and common complaint in the practice of Otolaryngology is that of nasal obstruction. We invest significant resources into the treatment of such complaints. In the United States alone, over 60 billion dollars a year is spent on the surgical treatment of this complaint." ……. "By far the most common cause of external valve malfunction is iatrogenic or surgically induced trauma." All this and the appalling use of asthma drugs in sport (Lillehammer 1994: 70% of the ski jumpers took them) seem to make an interdisciplinary scrutiny of the beliefs of the asthma community imperative with no holds barred. It seems quite likely that the muscle dysfunction side of asthma is so important that medicalization should be replaced wherever possible by inspiratory muscle training. Then there is compartmentalization: weakening diaphragm function with asthma drugs will reduce the hemodynamic effect of that organ. Massaging of the abdominal organs aids digestion, but it is no use asking a pulmonologist about this! On "conspiracy theory", maybe "schools of thought" was meant. However see the pro-pharma stuff from Nomen nescio on asthma drugs and tending to denigrate exercise. This is simply commercial opportunism. Regards, Richard Friedel

Response:

>> And what percentage of non-sinusitis patients have some recoverable fungi? >I believe it’s 60%. > Unless we have this statistic also, what basis is there for concluding that > hungus causes sinusitis? >Even if it turned out that 90% of sinus sufferers had fungi, and nearly >ZERO non-sinusitis patients had fungi, that STILL wouldn’t prove that >fungi cause chronic sinusitis. They could simply be an opportunistic >infection in a sinus sufferer.

You are absolutely correct. >The fact that sinus sufferers cannot be cured of sinusitis with >antifungal medication, also makes you wonder if that’s the cause or just >an accompaniment. (In contrast, once it was established that H. Pylori >bacteria were causing most peptic ulcers, doctors were able to cure >peptic ulcer disease–for good–with antibiotics to kill the H. Pylori >bacteria.) Mayo says you must take the antifungal medication for the >rest of your life or your sinusitis might flare up again. That’s not a >cure.

Right. The fungus hypothesis as just one hypothesis.

Response:

> >The Mayo Clinic believes that most chronic sinusitis is caused by a >FUNGAL infection. And unlike you, they have done that research >already. They recovered fungi from over 90% of chronic sinusitis >patients. > And what percentage of non-sinusitis patients have some recoverable fungi?

I believe it’s 60%. > Unless we have this statistic also, what basis is there for concluding that > hungus causes sinusitis?

Even if it turned out that 90% of sinus sufferers had fungi, and nearly ZERO non-sinusitis patients had fungi, that STILL wouldn’t prove that fungi cause chronic sinusitis. They could simply be an opportunistic infection in a sinus sufferer. The fact that sinus sufferers cannot be cured of sinusitis with antifungal medication, also makes you wonder if that’s the cause or just an accompaniment. (In contrast, once it was established that H. Pylori bacteria were causing most peptic ulcers, doctors were able to cure peptic ulcer disease–for good–with antibiotics to kill the H. Pylori bacteria.) Mayo says you must take the antifungal medication for the rest of your life or your sinusitis might flare up again. That’s not a cure. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

>The Mayo Clinic believes that most chronic sinusitis is caused by a >FUNGAL infection. And unlike you, they have done that research >already. They recovered fungi from over 90% of chronic sinusitis >patients.

And what percentage of non-sinusitis patients have some recoverable fungi? Unless we have this statistic also, what basis is there for concluding that hungus causes sinusitis?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> John, if I were you I would not take the (metacholine) test. I find it a > little strange that > people trust test results (which are always subject to error) over > symptoms, > when those tests became recognized and useful only because they were > correlated > with symptoms. > BL > Thanks for the advice. > I had enough of tests and medicines.

In that case, I would appreciate it if you would remove the conspiracy-theory nonsense from your website. It’s plain silly for you to state that the entire medical community (including all the teaching hospitals worldwide) says that asthma is incurable because the pharma companies have a vested interest in selling meds. If you’re trying to interest a venture philanthropist in funding your research, they are very unlikely to do so when they see conspiracy-theory nonsense like that. Because who do you think will actually be carrying out the research? Namely, the same scientists whom you have dismissed as influenced (or worse) by the pharma companies. If they can’t be convinced that your theory is worth investigating, you have no chance. If you want to believe that the pharma companies are helping to suppress "cures" for asthma like yours, feel free to believe it. But if you want to get your research funded and supported, I strongly suggest you keep your conspiracy theories to yourself! — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> You need to separate your variables. > You don’t have sinus infections, you had ASTHMA. > Why then would I have had deviated septum surgery, and > double maxiliary nasal antrostomy operations ? > All these surgical operations were of very limited benefit to either > sinusitis (or asthma). > The underlying infection continues in the remaining cavities of the > sinuses – as you frequently hear from others in this newsgroup, > and observe from your own condition. The only way to treat it > is to treat the underlying infection.

The Mayo Clinic believes that most chronic sinusitis is caused by a FUNGAL infection. And unlike you, they have done that research already. They recovered fungi from over 90% of chronic sinusitis patients. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> But I don’t think John is in any discomfort(???) > I think he is here to tell us how his chronic asthma and sinusitis became > either asymptomatic, or "cured." > But I could be wrong. > Absolutely correct – there’s no sign of asthma or sinus or > the frequent sore throats that used to occur. > I’m trying to raise interest in the treatment that helped us > overcome asthma – in case there is somebody or an > organisation out there with some philanthropic feeling > who might like to encourage or fund research.

Then you’re going about this the wrong way. Go search the Internet for "venture philanthropy". And until you have someone doing real research into your theory, let alone confirming it, please don’t keep advocating it to the rest of us. (How many philanthropists do you think you’re going to find here?) It’s wrong to imply that we should go out and dose ourselves with metronidazole (which can have some nasty side effects) without some real evidence. And please stop telling us that you have been "cured" of asthma, until this research bears some real fruit. The world’s medical community knows full well that asthma is incurable today, with today’s medical knowledge. And they know far more about asthma, than you do. Your own personal experience notwithstanding. Asthma is incurable. The burden of proof is on you to prove otherwise. And what happened to you personally, with an improvement in your symptoms and no confirming medical tests, does not constitute PROOF. Not by a long shot. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

> > I know of NO EVIDENCE that anyone has recovered anaerobes (in sufficient > numbers to cause even a low-level chronic infection), from sputum > samples of 80% of asthmatics. Nor via bronchoscopies or biopsies > either. > Steven, > Anaerobes have long been recognised as being involved in > Chronic sinusitis – (which is frequently associated with asthma) > See below – more than 88% to 98% occurrence in recent studies

You need to separate your variables. You don’t have sinus infections, you had ASTHMA. I’ll repeat my statement: I know of NO EVIDENCE that anyone has recovered anaerobes from the sputum of asthmatics. Obviously if an asthmatic has a sinus infection, then the infectious agent could be any kind of microbe. Now if you want to discuss sinusitis APART from asthma, then we can do that as well. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

> You need to separate your variables. > You don’t have sinus infections, you had ASTHMA.

Why then would I have had deviated septum surgery, and double maxiliary nasal antrostomy operations ? All these surgical operations were of very limited benefit to either sinusitis (or asthma). The underlying infection continues in the remaining cavities of the sinuses – as you frequently hear from others in this newsgroup, and observe from your own condition. The only way to treat it is to treat the underlying infection. John Reed

Response:

> Steven, ref doctors who say "it’s all in your head" > Along my journeys with asthma, I WAS sent to a mental health > consultant. Not wishing to refuse any consultation > I went along, and was diagnosed as a normal, but a very worried > individual who had understandable concerns about his deteriorating health > situation. That was before I got cured etc. Nowadays I have no health > worries, and don’t get sent anywhere.

John, I’ve already had numerous discussions with you about the lack of experimental evidence for your theory. And about the lack of more case studies beyond the experience of you and your own family. But let’s focus on your being "cured" of asthma. To be "cured" of asthma, this means that you no longer show as having symptoms on such tests as pulmonary function test, and ESPECIALLY the methacholine challenge test (which is the "gold standard" test for asthma). So have you been so tested? And if so, what were the results? — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

> To be "cured" of asthma, this means that you no longer show as having > symptoms on such tests as pulmonary function test, and ESPECIALLY the > methacholine challenge test (which is the "gold standard" test for > asthma). > So have you been so tested? And if so, what were the results?

There’s no wheeze, or bronchial constriction, or out-of-breath condition, but I’d be happy to undertake the metacholine test, although it sounds a little unpleasant to have a chemical sprayed down the airways.

Response:

> I know of NO EVIDENCE that anyone has recovered anaerobes (in sufficient > numbers to cause even a low-level chronic infection), from sputum > samples of 80% of asthmatics. Nor via bronchoscopies or biopsies > either.

Steven, Anaerobes have long been recognised as being involved in Chronic sinusitis – (which is frequently associated with asthma) See below – more than 88% to 98% occurrence in recent studies ASTHMA.ABOUT.COM – Asthma & Sinusitis Bacterial infections in chronic sinusitis involve ANAEROBIC bacteria. WELLNESS.UCDAVIS.EDU Certain ANAEROBIC bacteria, particularly the species Peptostreptococcus, Fusobacterium, and Prevotella, are found in 88% of cultures in chronic sinusitis cases; ANAEROBE INFECTIONS OF THE THROAT AND SINUSES I.J.Mitchelmore, S.Tabaqchali, London, UK A moderate to heavy growth of ANAEROBES was found in 98% of patients. AMERICAN ACADEMY OF ALLERGY ASTHMA AND IMMUNOLOGY The bacteria that are associated with chronic sinusitis include: …. several species of ANAEROBIC bacteria. WWW.ALLERGYCAPITAL.COM.AU The development of a sealed sinus cavity impairs sinus drainage and favors the proliferation of ANAEROBIC bacteria. WWW.EMEDICINE.COM Mucus stagnation in the sinus forms a rich medium for the growth of various pathogens. Initially, the resulting acute sinusitis involves only one type of aerobic bacteria. With persistence of the infection, mixed flora, ANAEROBIC organisms, and, occasionally, fungus contribute to the pathogenesis.

Response:

> John, if I were you I would not take the (metacholine) test. I find it a little strange that > people trust test results (which are always subject to error) over symptoms, > when those tests became recognized and useful only because they were correlated > with symptoms. > BL

Thanks for the advice. I had enough of tests and medicines.

Response:

> But I don’t think John is in any discomfort(???) > I think he is here to tell us how his chronic asthma and sinusitis became > either asymptomatic, or "cured." > But I could be wrong.

Absolutely correct – there’s no sign of asthma or sinus or the frequent sore throats that used to occur. I’m trying to raise interest in the treatment that helped us overcome asthma – in case there is somebody or an organisation out there with some philanthropic feeling who might like to encourage or fund research. http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

Response:

>That was before I got cured etc. Nowadays I have no health > worries, and don’t get sent anywhere. > John Reed > http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

Well John, please don’t leave us hanging. Tell us how you "got cured", certainly a rarity for sinusitis and asthma sufferers.

Response:

> No one is "genetically doomed", but I certainly suppose that genetics has > something to do with predisposition to sinus problems. Two kids could grow > up in the exact same environment, same lifestyle, and one have sinus > problems and the other doesn’t.

Absolutely correct – genetic differences are responsible in large part for one person reacting to an environment or infection in one way, and another person reacting totally differently. No one is doomed to a life of sinus and asthma related problems by nature of their genetics. Just the opposite. Once we understand how genetics leads to sinus and asthma in one person, and a clean bill of health in another, we can begin to fix the problem. By understanding the root cause of the related sinus and asthma, it is possible to treat the cause, rather than treat the symptoms. Steven, and others, are sensitive to bacteria that do not bother the majority of the population, which are normally considered part of the background bacterial flora and fauna that we all support. Genetic differences in individuals mean that Steven and others will react badly to give asthma and sinusitis, whereas others will allow the bacteria to co-exist un-noticed. The bacterium involved is from the anaerobic family and is not significantly sensitive to the families of drugs that Steven mentions. Recent research into anaerobic bacteria in sinusitis can be found at http://www.bms.ed.ac.uk/services/webspace/sam/Articles/Article3.htm Moderate to heavy involvement of anaerobes was found in 98% of patients. Research is needed into the role of anaerobic bacteria in asthma. John Reed http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

Response:

Steven, ref doctors who say "it’s all in your head" Along my journeys with asthma, I WAS sent to a mental health consultant. Not wishing to refuse any consultation I went along, and was diagnosed as a normal, but a very worried individual who had understandable concerns about his deteriorating health situation. That was before I got cured etc. Nowadays I have no health worries, and don’t get sent anywhere. John Reed http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > My current ENT, of course, refuses to do any more of this. He told me > > recently, "Just go enjoy your life." Which sounds like a euphemism for > > "There’s nothing further I can do for you." > I’d say drop him completely. > Interesting, when doctors don’t know what to do to help you, or don’t want > to spend the time and energy to investigate and really think about your > problem, they dismiss you with the implication that it’s "all in your head". > What’s *really* interesting, is that while they may imply (or even say) > that it’s "all in your head," they will invariably refuse to refer you > to a qualified mental health professional to get treated! > — > Steven D. Litvintchouk > Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

It seems to me that it is going to be hard getting rid of your problems while you live in an extremely mouldy home, as you have described. You say you have a huge amount of discharge. It seems to me that is quite possibly in large part due to infection, but also due to allergic reaction to the mold spores.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > MS, > The problem that Steven and others in this newsgroup are facing is that > repeated irririgation, ENT surgery, and antibiotics are having less and > less effect. I went through exactly the same experience. > The problem is NOT that Steven and others have a worsened immune system, or > their bacteria have become resistant. The problem is that due to their > genetic > inheritance, Steven and others are sensitive to bacteria that are carried by > almost > the entire population – as part of the billions of bacteria that co-inhabit > our > bodies, and which are normally considered part of the background bacterial > fauna.

Wait a minute! Today there are immunological tests that can be done to test all the subtypes of immunoglobulin, to see how your immune system reacts to being challenged with pneumococcus, diphtheria toxin, etc.. What should happen is that antibodies specific to each of these should rise dramatically after you’re challenged with these things. http://www.sinuses.com/postsurg.htm I’m having those tests myself. The first phase didn’t show anything abnormal. True immunological disorders are relatively rare, affecting maybe a few percent of the population. You could see an immunologist and have those tests done for yourself. I’ll bet they would show nothing abnormal too. — Steven D. Litvintchouk Remove the NOSPAM before replying to me.

Response:

MS, The problem that Steven and others in this newsgroup are facing is that repeated irririgation, ENT surgery, and antibiotics are having less and less effect. I went through exactly the same experience. The problem is NOT that Steven and others have a worsened immune system, or their bacteria have become resistant. The problem is that due to their genetic inheritance, Steven and others are sensitive to bacteria that are carried by almost the entire population – as part of the billions of bacteria that co-inhabit our bodies, and which are normally considered part of the background bacterial fauna. So, two people can co-exist side-by-side as man and wife. ONE will have asthma and sinus problems, the OTHER will not. They both share similar bacterial invaders, but one will be sensitive to the background bacterial load and will react to give asthma and sinus symptoms, the other will continue un-affected. The offending bacterium has two effects in genetically susceptible individuals: 1 – the susceptible individual is highly sensitive to the irritants of the bacterium and this leads to an asthmatic response, IgE generation, mast cell degranulation and bronchial constriction. 2 – the bacterium reduces the capability of the immune system to fight other normal infections – leading to synergistic infections of other kinds which are involved in sinus flare-ups. Use of antibiotics such as penicillins, quinolones, cephalosporins will not eradicate the problem, because the offending bacterium is not sensitive to these drugs. The antibiotics Steven mentions will have effect on the secondary synergistic infections, but will have no impact on the underlying cause of the problem. Furthermore, as time goes by, these drugs will have less and less benefit – as Steven is observing, not because of drug resistance but because the underlying cause of the problem has become more widely implanted in a systemic manner, leading to more frequent occurrence of synergistic infection, and continued asthma. John Reed http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Steven, I’d say you will never get your asthma and related sinus condition > under control, until you have eradicated the underlying infection. > No amount of irrigation, or ENT surgery will fix the problem, except > maybe for a brief interlude while you think and hope it may have > gone away for a while. > John Reed > http://www.new-asthma.uk.net > If "no amount of irrigation or surgery will fix the problem, how do you > propose that he "eradicate the underlying infection"?

Response:

MS, The problem that Steven and others in this newsgroup are facing is that repeated irririgation, ENT surgery, and antibiotics are having less and less effect. I went through exactly the same experience. The problem is NOT that Steven and others have a worsened immune system, or their bacteria have become resistant. The problem is that due to their genetic inheritance, Steven and others are sensitive to bacteria that are carried by almost the entire population – as part of the billions of bacteria that co-inhabit our bodies, and which are normally considered part of the background bacterial fauna. So, two people can co-exist side-by-side as man and wife. ONE will have asthma and sinus problems, the OTHER will not. They both share similar bacterial invaders, but one will be sensitive to the background bacterial load and will react to give asthma and sinus symptoms, the other will continue un-affected. The offending bacterium has two effects in genetically susceptible individuals: 1 – the susceptible individual is highly sensitive to the irritants of the bacterium and this leads to an asthmatic response, IgE generation, and mast cell degranulation and bronchial constriction. 2 – the bacterium reduces the capability of the immune system to fight other normal infections – leading to synergistic infections of other kinds which are involved in sinus flare-ups. Use of antibiotics such as penicillins, quinolones, cephalosporins will not eradicate the problem, because the offending bacterium is not sensitive to these drugs. The antibiotics Steven mentions will have effect on the secondary synergistic infections, but will have no impact on the underlying cause of the problem. Furthermore, as time goes by, these drugs will have less and less benefit – as Steven is observing, not because of drug resistance but because the underlying cause of the problem has become more widely implanted in a systemic manner, leading to more frequent occurrence of synergistic infection, and continued asthma. Let me know if any further explanation is needed, on any point. John Reed http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

Response:

> Steven, I’d say you will never get your asthma and related sinus condition > under control, until you have eradicated the underlying infection. > No amount of irrigation, or ENT surgery will fix the problem, except > maybe for a brief interlude while you think and hope it may have > gone away for a while. > John Reed > http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

If "no amount of irrigation or surgery will fix the problem, how do you propose that he "eradicate the underlying infection"?

Response:

Steve, You could just use syringes until the infection is gone. They are fairly cheap enough at the farm store to throw away after use. Just a suggestion. That is what I use, except I just sterilize them after each use. Kathy

Response:

Steven, I’d say you will never get your asthma and related sinus condition under control, until you have eradicated the underlying infection. No amount of irrigation, or ENT surgery will fix the problem, except maybe for a brief interlude while you think and hope it may have gone away for a while. John Reed http://www.new-asthma.uk.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> A while back, > I posted that my sinus culture had showed a low-level Enterococcus > Faecalis infection. > And that after a bad cold I got a full-blown nasty sinus infection. > I got a second opinion from the ENT who did my sinus surgery in 1997. > He insisted that the E. Faecalis was simply a contaminant, and that I > probably had an ordinary sinus infection that could be treated the usual > way–Ceftin antibiotic plus frequent irrigation. > Well, I tried that, and he seemed to be right, because the sinus > infection quieted down after a week of the Ceftin. > But just today, the infection began to start up again. Even though I > haven’t even finished the Ceftin prescription. > Now I’m convinced. I must be reinfecting myself from the irrigation > equipment. > Since I have failed to keep the WaterPik and Grossan tip sufficiently > clean, > should I just throw them both out and buy new ones? > — > Steven D. Litvintchouk

Response:

asthma questions

admin — Mon, 15 Jul 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

>My husband was diagnosed with asthma caused by long term sinus infections a >couple of years ago. (He never got a headache so didn’t even realize his >sinuses were infected.) Since then, he has had two sinus surgeries and >things are much better in that area. He does not have "attacks" where he >cannot breathe, but he does cough a lot and brings up thick, sticky >phlegm–sometimes it is almost hard. He uses Seravent and Flovent a.m. and >p.m. Do asthmatics always have that thick mucous in their lungs? Will he >have to use the inhalers the rest of his life? Is there anything that can >thin the mucous so it is easier to get up? Any answers from fellow >sufferers will be much appreciated.

Cant talk to most of this post, but one thing I will say…make sure your husband drinks LOTS of fluid if the mucous is thick. 8-10 big glasses of water a day, at least. Sounds to me like you husband has cough-variant asthma, which I am sure others here know more about. I have severe asthma myself, and sometimes my lungs do have a problem with thick mucous. Drinking lots of water helps, and sometimes drinking hot clear liquids like peppermint tea also helps thin it out so I can cough it up. Jennifer Jennifer Landry

Response:

Thick mucus is a major problem in asthma. Among the things that thin mucus are huge amounts of liquids, esp hot tea and chicken soup. One reason the mucus is so thick is that the cilia which move the liquid have slowed down so the liquid stays there and thickens. Steam inhallation with the tongue out helps. Other suggestions at http://www.ent-consult.com Yellow or thick mucus from the sinus is undesireable. At the web site of the Denver Hospital for Asthma and at the web site of Dr Davidson they recommend pulsatile irrigation with the water pik and the nasal attachment. This helps remove pus and thins the secretions. Hope this helps. Best wishes, Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com tell a friend > My husband was diagnosed with asthma caused by long term sinus infections a > couple of years ago. (He never got a headache so didn’t even realize his > sinuses were infected.) Since then, he has had two sinus surgeries and > things are much better in that area. He does not have "attacks" where he > cannot breathe, but he does cough a lot and brings up thick, sticky > phlegm–sometimes it is almost hard. He uses Seravent and Flovent a.m. and > p.m. Do asthmatics always have that thick mucous in their lungs? Will he > have to use the inhalers the rest of his life? Is there anything that can > thin the mucous so it is easier to get up? Any answers from fellow > sufferers will be much appreciated. > MRyan

Response:

> My husband was diagnosed with asthma caused by long term sinus infections a > couple of years ago. (He never got a headache so didn’t even realize his > sinuses were infected.) Since then, he has had two sinus surgeries and > things are much better in that area. He does not have "attacks" where he > cannot breathe, but he does cough a lot and brings up thick, sticky > phlegm–sometimes it is almost hard. He uses Seravent and Flovent a.m. and > p.m. Do asthmatics always have that thick mucous in their lungs? Will he > have to use the inhalers the rest of his life? Is there anything that can > thin the mucous so it is easier to get up? Any answers from fellow > sufferers will be much appreciated. > MRyan

Sinusitis can cause asthma from postnasal drip getting into lungs. Sounds like this is still happening. Sinusitis sufferers often need to use saline washes of nasal passages on a daily basis for hygenic reasons. If he is using decongestants or antihistamines, these can thicken the mucus; a better way to go for nasal congestion is the steroid nasal sprays like Rhinocort, Flonase, Vancenase. He should stay well hydrated by drinking lots of water. Here are some links: http://www.njc.org/MFhtml/NSW_MF.html Nasal Wash Treatment

ADAM33 gene

admin — Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Asthma gene discovered July 10 – Scientists held out new hope for asthma sufferers on Wednesday as they revealed the identity of a rogue gene closely linked to the ailment suffered by millions across the globe. A team of British and American scientists who spent five years mapping the genes of 460 pairs of siblings eventually tracked down a gene they dubbed ADAM33 which they blamed for the condition that leads to asthma attacks. ADAM33 – A Disintegrin And Metalloprotease, is the first gene linked to bronchial hypersensitiveness or twitchy airways which overreact to environmental stimuli and produce the classic coughing and shortness of breath that plagues asthma victims. The airways in asthma patients undergo a number of changes such as thickening of the airway walls and subsequent narrowing of the airway passage, Stephen Holgate, research professor at Southampton University medical school told Nature magazine. Our studies suggest ADAM33 plays a role in this remodeling and may underlie abnormalities in asthmatic airway function, he added. Asthma affects millions of men, women and children across the globe, accounting for the deaths of 5,000 people each year in the United States as well as 10 million missed school days and 134 million days of restricted activity. Asthma tends to run in families, and many people have believed for years that its underlying cause was genetic but attacks were brought on by local environmental conditions. We

ADs and eye floaters?

admin — Sun, 23 Jun 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Within two weeks of starting Effexor XR I suddenly developed floaters in one eye. Dr. says floaters develop and says there’s no connection between the effexor and the sudden appearance of floaters but someone else on the vision NG says the same thing happened to him. Has anyone heard of floaters developing with the use of ADs? TIA Louise

Response:

>Within two weeks of starting Effexor XR I suddenly developed floaters in >one eye. Dr. says floaters develop and says there’s no connection >between the effexor and the sudden appearance of floaters but someone >else on the vision NG says the same thing happened to him. >Has anyone heard of floaters developing with the use of ADs?

Of course. I dont know what planet your doctor comes from but vision defects and aggravation of glaucoma is THE most common listed effect of Effexor. Its to be avoided if at all possible. You have rightly reported this to your doctor and if they have such an irresponsible attitude, you may like to think about changing to a more informed one with slightly more interest in your welfare. http://www.gettingwell.com/drug_info/rxdrugprofiles/drugs/EFF1153.shtml What side effects may occur? Side effects cannot be anticipated. If any develop or change in intensity, tell your doctor as soon as possible. Only your doctor can determine if it is safe for you to continue taking Effexor. More common side effects may include: Abnormal vision, belching, bronchitis, changeable emotions, chest pain, difficult or labored breathing, increased pulse rate, inflammation of the prostate gland, inflammation of the vagina, irregular uterine bleeding, lockjaw, loss of touch with reality, migraine, neck pain, purple patches on the skin, swelling due to fluid retention, vertigo, weight gain Less common side effects may include: Abnormal sensitivity, abnormal speech, acne, anemia, angina pectoris (crushing chest pain), apathy, arthritis, asthma, bladder pain, blood or pus in the urine, breast pain, bone pain, brittle nails, bursitis, cataracts, chest congestion, clenching or grinding of the teeth, cold feet and hands, colitis, decreased muscle tone, difficulty swallowing, double vision, dry eyes, dry skin, eczema, exaggerated feeling of well-being, excessive menstrual flow, excessive urination, eye disorders or pain, fainting, hair loss, hallucinations, hemorrhoids, high or low blood sugar, high cholesterol, hives, hostility, hyperventilation, increased sex drive, inflammation of the bladder, inflammation of the digestive tract, infection, irregular heartbeat, lack of coordination, lack of menstruation, laryngitis, leg cramps, low blood pressure, mania, middle ear inflammation, mouth sores, muscles spasms, muscle weakness, nerve pain, nosebleeds, overactivity, painful urination, paranoia, pinkeye, "pins and needles" around the mouth, pneumonia, psoriasis, psychosis, stupor, rectal and vaginal hemorrhage, secretion of milk, seizures, skin disorders, swelling of the tongue, taste loss, tarry stools, tendonitis, thirst, urinary urgency and incontinence, vaginal discharge, voice changes Rare side effects may include: Abnormal gait, abnormal kidney function, abortion, alcohol abuse, alcohol intolerance, bleeding gums, blocked intestines, blood disorders, breast development in men, breast enlargement or swelling, breast inflammation, contracted pupils, deafness, decreased or increased reflexes, decreased ventilation, dehydration, delusions, dementia, diabetes, diminished or shortened menstruation, excessive body and facial hair, facial paralysis, fatigue, gallstones or gallbladder inflammation, goiter, gout, Guillain-Barre Syndrome, hair discoloration, hair follicle infections, heart disorders, hepatitis, inability to communicate, increased salivation, kidney pain, kidney stones, lack of skin pigment, lack or scanty amount of urine, loss of consciousness, lung problems, menopause, nerve inflammation, ovarian cyst, paleness, pelvic inflammation, prolonged erection, psychotic depression, rash, restlessness, rheumatoid arthritis, ruptured tendons, skin discoloration, skin disorders, sleep apnea, slow heartbeat, slow movement, soft stools, spitting blood from the lungs or bronchial tubes, stiff neck, suicidal ideation, thyroid disorders, tongue discoloration, uterine bleeding or spasm, vomiting of blood, yeast infection of the mouth, yellowed eyes and skin — – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->TIA >Louise

Response:

> You have rightly reported this to your doctor and if they have such an > irresponsible attitude, you may like to think about changing to a more > informed one with slightly more interest in your welfare.

how about suing his ass?

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Never heard of it before. As a matter of fact, I used to have floaters much > more frequently before I went on Effexor, over a year ago. Now that you > mention the topic, I can’t remember the last time I had a floater. > rudy > Within two weeks of starting Effexor XR I suddenly developed floaters in > one eye. Dr. says floaters develop and says there’s no connection > between the effexor and the sudden appearance of floaters but someone > else on the vision NG says the same thing happened to him. > Has anyone heard of floaters developing with the use of ADs? > TIA > Louise

My pdoc said I could have some dryness in the eyes but he hasn’t ever heard of floaters from Effexor. I decided not to increase the dosage (only taking 37.5) and wait to be sure I don’t develop more floaters in a week or two. Louise

Response:

> > You have rightly reported this to your doctor and if they have such an > irresponsible attitude, you may like to think about changing to a more > informed one with slightly more interest in your welfare. > how about suing his ass?

- If we sued every doctor who did not pick every single side effect up described in the CPS for every million drugs, we wouldn’t have a doctor left to stitch up your head after you it half fell off in a car accident. I won’t go into what state of medicine they enjoy in Africa – perhaps you read newspapers. Squiggles "Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is orignal is not good." — Samuel Johnson

Response:

magnesium

admin — Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Med Hypotheses 2002 Jan;58(1):47-60 The central role of magnesium deficiency in Tourette’s syndrome: causal relationships between magnesium deficiency, altered biochemical pathways and symptoms relating to Tourette’s syndrome and several reported comorbid conditions. Grimaldi BL. Prior studies have suggested a common etiology involved in Tourette’s syndrome and several comorbid conditions and symptomatology. Reportedly, current medications used in Tourette’s syndrome have intolerable side-effects or are ineffective for many patients. After thoroughly researching the literature, I hypothesize that magnesium deficiency may be the central precipitating event and common pathway for the subsequent biochemical effects on substance P, kynurenine, NMDA receptors, and vitamin B6 that may result in the symptomatology of Tourette’s syndrome and several reported comorbid conditions. These comorbid conditions and symptomatology include allergy, asthma, autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder, coprolalia, copropraxia, anxiety, depression, restless leg syndrome, migraine, self-injurious behavior, autoimmunity, rage, bruxism, seizure, heart arrhythmia, heightened sensitivity to sensory stimuli, and an exaggerated startle response. Common possible environmental and genetic factors are discussed, as well as biochemical mechanisms. Clinical studies to determine the medical efficacy for a comprehensive magnesium treatment option for Tourette’s syndrome need to be conducted to make this relatively safe, low side-effect treatment option available to doctors and their patients.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Med Hypotheses 2002 Jan;58(1):47-60 >The central role of magnesium deficiency in Tourette’s syndrome: causal >relationships between magnesium deficiency, altered biochemical pathways and >symptoms relating to Tourette’s syndrome and several reported comorbid >conditions. >Grimaldi BL. >Prior studies have suggested a common etiology involved in Tourette’s >syndrome and several comorbid conditions and symptomatology. Reportedly, >current medications used in Tourette’s syndrome have intolerable >side-effects or are ineffective for many patients. After thoroughly >researching the literature, I hypothesize that magnesium deficiency may be >the central precipitating event and common pathway for the subsequent >biochemical effects on substance P, kynurenine, NMDA receptors, and vitamin >B6 that may result in the symptomatology of Tourette’s syndrome and several >reported comorbid conditions. These comorbid conditions and symptomatology >include allergy, asthma, autism, attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, >obsessive compulsive disorder, coprolalia, copropraxia, anxiety, depression, >restless leg syndrome, migraine, self-injurious behavior, autoimmunity, >rage, bruxism, seizure, heart arrhythmia, heightened sensitivity to sensory >stimuli, and an exaggerated startle response. Common possible environmental >and genetic factors are discussed, as well as biochemical mechanisms. >Clinical studies to determine the medical efficacy for a comprehensive >magnesium treatment option for Tourette’s syndrome need to be conducted to >make this relatively safe, low side-effect treatment option available to >doctors and their patients.

Yep, I find all my vitamins and mineral supplements very helpful and not HARMFUL! And, it does help. Many symptoms have disappeared totally. aSymptoms have lessened markedly on many AyayMy symptoms really helps. My symptoms have lessened markedly since I began taking Vitamin B-100 complex, then Vitamin C and ataddiStill taking my magnesium

Response:

> No Squiggles, I’m not Ray from ASAP, so put the claws away.

hee. pity – i just filed them – next! lol Squiggles p.s. Bruce Springsteen huh? I used to listen to him. — U.S. Constitution: First Amendment Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Response:

Hi Lar, What do you take as a benzo? I can’t remember what you said you take at night…it’s been awhile since I visited this newsgroup. I got a prescr. for Klonopin. I ordered Kava Kava for the day also but haven’t taken this yet. What foods have natural benzo in them? I’ve seen mentioned Green Tea..with L-theanine. Let me throw a link your way. This one is on Klonopin, from cfc page. http://virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/medical/klonopin.html

Response:

Green tea will give you a caffeine lift, so it certainly wouldn’t work like a "natural" benzo.

Response:

>Hi Lar, >What do you take as a benzo? I can’t remember what you said you take >at night…it’s been awhile since I visited this newsgroup. >I got a prescr. for Klonopin. I ordered Kava Kava for the day also >but haven’t taken this yet. What foods have natural benzo in them? >I’ve seen mentioned Green Tea..with L-theanine. >Let me throw a link your way. This one is on Klonopin, from cfc page. >http://virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/medical/klonopin.html

Hi ,Rainking How did the tianeptine work out?

Response:

> Hi Lar, > What do you take as a benzo? I can’t remember what you said you take > at night…it’s been awhile since I visited this newsgroup.

Temazepam. > I got a prescr. for Klonopin. I ordered Kava Kava for the day also > but haven’t taken this yet. What foods have natural benzo in them?

Dunno. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve seen mentioned Green Tea..with L-theanine. > Let me throw a link your way. This one is on Klonopin, from cfc page. > http://virtualhometown.com/dfwcfids/medical/klonopin.html

Response:

> Hi ,Rainking > How did the tianeptine work out?

Stopped it while back. I have some kind of immune system disorder, not depression.

Response:

> Magnesium was expiremented with as an add-on therapy in an ER setting. > Appareltly it was not a success as the practice was dropped.

It’s not exactly been dropped (there is no one person who can ‘drop’ it). Let’s just say that in light of conflicting studies there is probably a subgroup of patients who get benefit and we don’t know exactly what group that is if it indeed exists. In the doses typically used for asthma there is probably no harm in giving it but given that the sorts of people you use this on are already getting multiple other drugs and therapies simultaneously it’s difficult to separate out the effect of the Mg on a given patient without having a large study with good controls. Many of us will try Mg IV in refractory patients and most get better but who knows if it was the Mg that did it or just the accumulation of all the other therapies in progress (and of course for that particular individual who gets better who cares). – Don Elton Columbia, SC http://www.midcarolina.org

Response:

>Magnesium was expiremented with as an add-on therapy in an ER setting.

When my daughter had a severe allergic reaction, one of the things they put in her IV was magnesuim. They told me it was to make the medicine work better. This was in Dec. 1999

Response:

> >Magnesium was expiremented with as an add-on therapy in an ER setting. > When my daughter had a severe allergic reaction, one of the things they put in > her IV was magnesuim. They told me it was to make the medicine work better. > This was in Dec. 1999

I got mine in July of 1999. — Lisa M. DeSavage Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

> Oral calicium and magnesium seem to help muscle cramps for me. Magnesium > also seem good for constipation. I can’t tell it does anything for asthma.

Bronchodilator type medications can interfeer with magnesium absorbtion which can cause cramping.

Response:

Yes! Whenever I have bad asthma attacks they give me Magnesium IV. It seems to work in combination of other meds.

Response:

(LisaKatieT) writes: >Yes! Whenever I have bad asthma attacks they give me Magnesium IV. It seems >to work in combination of other meds.

What other meds… scratching the big toe of your left foot can appear to be a asthma remedy too, if it’s done in combination with prescribed meds. Sheldon On a recent Night Court rerun, Judge Harry Stone had a wonderful line: "I try to keep an open mind, but not so open that my brains fall out."

Response:

My wife has RA with cough-variant asthma and she has received magnesium several times with great success. Typically in combo with solumedrol. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Yes! Whenever I have bad asthma attacks they give me Magnesium IV. It seems >to work in combination of other meds.

Response:

A Study showing significant reduction of acute asthma after infusion of magnesium http://www.ama-assn.org/special/asthma/library/readroom/magnfull.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I got magnesium via an I.V. in an E.R. once to try to break my asthma > attack. Other than hurting my arm like all get out, it didn’t work. > And no I was not hyperventilating. I wouldn’t try the magnisium route > again. Waste of insurance money and too painful. > Magnesium was expiremented with as an add-on therapy in an ER setting. > Appareltly it was not a success as the practice was dropped. > Oral magnesium supplements have been tested and found to be useless for the > treatment of asthma. > Of course the people selling the supplements are going to say that "it is > said by many to help (inset disease here)." They won’t sell very many > supplements if they admit that the stuff is useless. > > Has anyone had any luck with magnesium supplements? I have been taking > it > > for several years now, but with all the other medications I am on I was > not > > aware of any effect. Magnesium is said by many to help alleviate asthma. > Has > > anyone anything on this? > — > Lisa M. DeSavage > Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. > www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

Actually I did read a study that said participants reported improved symptoms, but none of the typical asthma metrics showed improvement. I tried it for a couple of months, didn’t feel any difference though. Eur Respir J 1997 Oct;10(10):2225-2229 Investigation of the effect of short-term change in dietary magnesium intake in asthma. Hill J, Micklewright A, Lewis S, Britton J Division of Respiratory Medicine, City Hospital, Nottingham, UK. Epidemiological evidence suggests that a low dietary intake of magnesium is associated with impaired lung function, bronchial hyperreactivity and wheezing. This study was designed to investigate whether short-term alterations of dietary magnesium intake have an effect on the clinical control of asthma. In a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled, cross-over study, 17 asthmatic subjects adhered to a low magnesium diet for two periods of 3 weeks, preceded and separated by a 1 week run-in/wash-out, in which they took either placebo or magnesium (400 mg x day(-1)) tablet supplementation. Forced expiratory volume in one second (FEV1) and the provocative dose of methacholine required to cause a 20% fall in FEV1 from baseline (PD20,FEV1) were measured at the beginning and end of each treatment period, and variation in peak expiratory flow (PEF) rate, bronchodilator use and symptom scores recorded throughout. Asthma symptom scores were significantly lower during the magnesium treatment period, the median (95% confidence interval) difference from placebo being 3.8 (0.5-7.0) symptom points per 7 days (p=0.02). However, there was no significant improvement in FEV1, PD20,FEV1, log amplitude percentage mean PEF variation or bronchodilator use during magnesium supplementation. A high magnesium intake was associated with improvement in symptom scores, though not in objective measures of airflow or airway reactivity, in these stable asthmatic subjects. Publication Types: .Clinical trial .Randomized controlled trial

Response:

Has anyone had any luck with magnesium supplements? I have been taking it for several years now, but with all the other medications I am on I was not aware of any effect. Magnesium is said by many to help alleviate asthma. Has anyone anything on this?

Response:

I am taking 500mg daily for a few weeks now.. Along with other supplements, and have not needed an inhales since the start of the month. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone had any luck with magnesium supplements? I have been taking it > for several years now, but with all the other medications I am on I was not > aware of any effect. Magnesium is said by many to help alleviate asthma. Has > anyone anything on this?

Response:

I got magnesium via an I.V. in an E.R. once to try to break my asthma attack. Other than hurting my arm like all get out, it didn’t work. And no I was not hyperventilating. I wouldn’t try the magnisium route again. Waste of insurance money and too painful. > Has anyone had any luck with magnesium supplements? I have been taking it > for several years now, but with all the other medications I am on I was not > aware of any effect. Magnesium is said by many to help alleviate asthma. Has > anyone anything on this?

– Lisa M. DeSavage Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

> I got magnesium via an I.V. in an E.R. once to try to break my asthma > attack. Other than hurting my arm like all get out, it didn’t work. > And no I was not hyperventilating. I wouldn’t try the magnisium route > again. Waste of insurance money and too painful.

Magnesium was expiremented with as an add-on therapy in an ER setting. Appareltly it was not a success as the practice was dropped. Oral magnesium supplements have been tested and found to be useless for the treatment of asthma. Of course the people selling the supplements are going to say that "it is said by many to help (inset disease here)." They won’t sell very many supplements if they admit that the stuff is useless. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Has anyone had any luck with magnesium supplements? I have been taking it > for several years now, but with all the other medications I am on I was not > aware of any effect. Magnesium is said by many to help alleviate asthma. Has > anyone anything on this? > — > Lisa M. DeSavage > Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. > www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

Oral calicium and magnesium seem to help muscle cramps for me. Magnesium also seem good for constipation. I can’t tell it does anything for asthma. Gordon Stillwater, OK www.couger.com/gcouger – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I got magnesium via an I.V. in an E.R. once to try to break my asthma > attack. Other than hurting my arm like all get out, it didn’t work. > And no I was not hyperventilating. I wouldn’t try the magnisium route > again. Waste of insurance money and too painful. > Magnesium was expiremented with as an add-on therapy in an ER setting. > Appareltly it was not a success as the practice was dropped. > Oral magnesium supplements have been tested and found to be useless for the > treatment of asthma. > Of course the people selling the supplements are going to say that "it is > said by many to help (inset disease here)." They won’t sell very many > supplements if they admit that the stuff is useless. > > Has anyone had any luck with magnesium supplements? I have been taking > it > > for several years now, but with all the other medications I am on I was > not > > aware of any effect. Magnesium is said by many to help alleviate asthma. > Has > > anyone anything on this? > — > Lisa M. DeSavage > Hinsbar Laboratories, Inc. > www.hinsbarlabs.com

Response:

> I recently read a summary from a scientific journal(1995) suggesting > that increased consumption of magnesium is very beneficial for > asthmatics–preventing attacks or lessening their severity. Does anyone > have knowledge or experience with taking magnesium?

I started taking magnesium because I had read something similar. While I can’t say that it has helped my asthma, I can confirm that it has eliminated all of the cramps I used to get from my meds.

Response:

I started taking magnesium, about three times the RDA, back in February and have been very pleased with the results. It hasn’t "cured" my asthma (I wish!) but it has enabled me to cut way back on my meds without any increase in attacks. In fact, I’ve only had three this summer (one a month), and they were very minor, knocked down immediately with a couple puffs of Proventil! Usually, if I have what I think of as a minor attack I’m in bad shape for a week or more afterwards, prone to further attacks. And I spent my first spring in years without a course of prednisone, but we had a drought so I can’t be sure if it was the dry weather or the magnesium that kept me off pred. Of course, I haven’t yet gone through ragweed and cedar seasons with magnesium. That will be the real test. I have high hopes that this Christmas I won’t be on prednisone for the holidays. Laura

Response:

I take a magnesium supplement 3 times a day. I have never made the magnesium/good-breathing connection, but I do feel that it has helped immensely with my heart irregularities and overall nerves. Peace, Don >I recently read a summary from a scientific journal(1995) suggesting >that increased consumption of magnesium is very beneficial for >asthmatics–preventing attacks or lessening their severity. Does anyo >ne >have knowledge or experience with taking magnesium?

– NETWATCH a division of ROCKOUT

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently read a summary from a scientific journal(1995) suggesting > that increased consumption of magnesium is very beneficial for > asthmatics–preventing attacks or lessening their severity. Does anyone > have knowledge or experience with taking magnesium? > I started taking magnesium, about three times the RDA, back in February > and have been very pleased with the results. It hasn’t "cured" my asthma > (I wish!) but it has enabled me to cut way back on my meds without any > increase in attacks. In fact, I’ve only had three this summer (one a > month), and they were very minor, knocked down immediately with a > couple puffs of Proventil! Usually, if I have what I think of as a minor > attack I’m in bad shape for a week or more afterwards, prone to further > attacks. And I spent my first spring in years without a course of > prednisone, but we had a drought so I can’t be sure if it was the dry > weather or the magnesium that kept me off pred. > Of course, I haven’t yet gone through ragweed and cedar seasons with > magnesium. That will be the real test. I have high hopes that this > Christmas I won’t be on prednisone for the holidays. > Laura

I find that Magnesium helps. However, I take a multivitamin in the am and a supplemental Magnesium in the pm. I tried the Magnesium plus Calcium supplements, and it seemed to make things worse. (Tried it since lack of calcium can also cause muscle cramping, or so I was advised.) A multivitamin is a good place to start; but I remember reading that you don’t actually absorb all of what’s in it. Much of the vitamin C, for instance, and B vitamins too, go right through. A small dose twice a day probably gets more into your system. Just don’t go for megadoses. asterisk

Response:

I recently read a summary from a scientific journal(1995) suggesting that increased consumption of magnesium is very beneficial for asthmatics–preventing attacks or lessening their severity. Does anyone have knowledge or experience with taking magnesium?

Response:

>I recently read a summary from a scientific journal (1995) suggesting >that increased consumption of magnesium is very beneficial for >asthmatics–preventing attacks or lessening their severity. Does anyone >have knowledge or experience with taking magnesium?

I sent Ann the file of anecdotes on this that I’ve collected along the way, much from this group. Here’s something I found on my bookshelf. Certainly not a new discovery! From Wise Encyclopedia of Cookery, 1971: "Healthy lungs show twice as much magnesium as lime [i.e. calcium carbonate]. Magnesium is a cell-builder, particularly of the nervous system and lung tissues. Magnesium salts assist in reducing foreign matter and waste, and in carrying them out of the system, thus invigorating the excretory organs and producing pressure, without which metabolism would be impossible." I highly recommend taking magnesium. It is in hard water, coffee, and dark green vegetables. Also taking magnesium before going to bed helps some people sleep better, i.e. more soundly. The anecdotes also mention taking B6. Don.

Response:

Sample of one experience: I took magnisium supplements for a while, and my asthma seemed to get better for a while, then stayed the same. I stopped taking it, and noticed no change…I asked my doctor, who suggested (to ME, YOUR SITAUATION MAY VARY) taking smallish dosages couldn’t hurt and might help. Thus it doesn’t seem to be a miracle cure, but it’s worth writing down to ask your doctor about the next time you see her/him. Scott-T.