Mr. Asthma

Home Utility Costs Revisited

admin — Mon, 18 Oct 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

One thing that I really enjoy more than anything…. is ‘not’ to have a monthly Natural Gas and City Water bill and a greatly reduced electric bill to pay at my house…. There is something else available as a reduction of the monthly utility bills that is available to senior citizens… It is called the Senior Citizen Phone Discount….. this discount makes a serious reduction in my monthly phone bill. Back in the 50’s when my parents first got a phone, they were given a choice of having a straight line, for $6 a month, or a party line (where several people used the same phone line), for $4 a month….. my dad got the straight line….. and the phone service was still cheap when I got my first home… that was before I was married and lived in an apartment…. I think I paid about $16 a month, back in the 60’s…. today, the cost of phone service from Southwestern Bell (SWB) is very high, and climbing monthly…. two years ago, when I terminated all the extra services, like Caller ID, Call Waiting, and Three Way Calling, to reduce my monthly phone bill, the charges were reduced to about $28 a month….. I had already terminated AT&T 1+ dialing back in 1998. so it was not included in that bill…. I thought that $28 a month with no extras, was doable for me, since I was near being a senior citizen at the time…. but I when SWB was deregulated, the phone bill started to increase on a monthly basis…. the serious escalation of the phone costs started in 2000, I think, and each month, there was a small increase in the monthly phone bill…. I started examining the phone charges, item by item, and could see the monthly increases…. One of the charges that I didn’t like was the $2.50 a month for ‘Not’ listing my name and address in their phone book….. Well, a little over a year ago, the total phone bill, without any long distance, had climbed to $36 a month, and this was without any extra calling features…. my problem was that I still needed the phone service because I used the internet, and because mother was ill, and needed to be taken to the doctor often…. so I had to have their service…. I think it was over a year ago, when one of the SWB charges doubled…. the $2.50 they charged me for ‘Not’ listing my name, address, and phone number in their phone book, was increased to $4.90 a month, increasing my phone bill to $38.50, which I thought was way too much….. that was when I explored the possibility of getting a senior citizen’s discount…. In Texas, as in many other states, a Senior Citizen’s Discount is set up by the State…. so I applied for this discount… and received it…. my actual phone bill is now $4.65 a month, but, the phone company still charges me an additional $4.90 for ‘Not’ listing my name in their phone book…. so my phone bill with the extra charge is about $10.37 a month with the local, federal, and state taxes, and is bearable….. Anyway, this lowered phone bill is a nice compliment to the terminated City Water Service and Natural Gas service which I no longer need or use…. Gig —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups —= East/West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—

Response:

> One thing that I really enjoy more than anything…. is ‘not’ to have a > monthly

Natural Gas

and City Water bill and a greatly reduced electric bill > to pay at my house….

I myself have noticed a tremendous increase in electric rates since 2000-2001. We had been running more or less $80/month for electric, with many appliances running, a chest freezer, 42 yr old refrigerator, electric space heaters in winter, and very cold a/c in summer, plus a huge stereo sound system idling all day and night, well pump running for months on end due to a rusted out nipple at the bottom of the well, lots of cooking on electric stove, television on 12 hours a day, etc. In 2001, our bill started hitting $140-160/month, so I started cutting back. Shut down the freezer, stopped running the big stereo all day and night and replaced with a small efficient mag field amplifier, replaced our fridge with an Energy Star model, stopped using space heaters, unplugged our water bed heater, shut off and sold the TV, replaced my computer monitors with the type that can go on standby, fixed the well pipe, almost didn’t use the a/c but for 5-6 really humid days last summer, and our electric bill is now averaging $230-240/month. It’s disgusting. If we go on vacation, and shut the main breaker to the whole house, the bill is over $50 for the connection alone with no kW used. I wonder if there is a similar senior discount for electricity? — Take care, Mark & Mary Ann Weiss VIDEO PRODUCTION

A/C blowing hot – '92 EB

admin — Tue, 20 Jul 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I don’t know what you are calling laziness. but I have been two days in 100 degree heat, 70+% humidity trying to work on this pig with no diagram or decent desciption to go by. My last experience with AC&R is over 20 years ago…..so if taking the initiative is laziness, especially when I am a computer geek by trade and profession, call me lazy. I’m out of work, running out of money, my meds alone are over $1200 a month and trying to get by. Sarcasm is not appreciated…..Capeesh? ….and yes, I am doing the work myself out of necessity. I’m a pretty damned good mechanic when I have stuff to work with. What I am lacking is is information, which I have politely asked for….which reminds me…. Thanks again guys.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), >> My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been >> replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in >> the >> system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the >> expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other >> similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be >> reading >> about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the >> pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no >> leaks >> in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I >> will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and >> Hayne’s >> both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is >> replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that >> this is >> not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil >> and >> freon. >> Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this >> bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier >> for me >> to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going >> south, it >> was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing? > John, not to sound belittling, but the reason the orifice tube and the > dryer are replaced is not to make the mechanic rich, but to get EVERY > last bit of contamination out of your A/C system. I’m having the dryer > and orifice tube replaced along with the leaking evaporator on my > Explorer. A $600 job, but the compressor alone for a Explorer can cost > that much. Before you do anything else, do the job right by flushing the > system, putting in a new orifice tube and dryer, and then recharging the > system. Anything else is false economy. Besides, it sounds like you are > doing the work yourself, the parts and refrigerant shouldn’t cost more > than $150 max. > Good luck. I feel for you, this Florida sun is a bitch. > I think this one is a lost cause… maybe once he sweats enough he’ll > lower the lazyness level a bit. > The pump is the expensive part, its also the fragile part. Lookin > around online the dryers have gotten quite a bit cheaper, the orface > tube is only a couple bucks, an 6oz bottle of the correct oil for R134A > use is like $3.50, and all the o-rings required might cost you $2.50… > If the condensor is loaded (I bet his is, he’s just as hard-headed as I > was) the price just went up about $100-150. > The whole thing is a 2-3 hour job. Mine has worked fine for 2 years > now, no leaks (ok, its a half a can down after 2 years, big woop) or > hassles. It’s sure nice to jump into the car and cool off right quick. > JS

Response:

Well, after two days of clueless work, I finally managed to get the booger to work. Some of it was repetitive, but thems teh breaks I guess. The orifice tube was crapped up, the accumulator was not ( drained oil anyway and checked for particulates – none ), replaced the compressor a second time…..now all is as it should be adn running very cool at 45 degrees and 45 psi on the LP side. Thanks again, guys. John

Response:

S’alright, Richard. I asked for the help, remember. Yes, it was dumb not to do it, but it is done. I went through and pulled the orifice tube ( crapped up badly and has been replaced ), flushed the lines and cores with alcohol, blew everything out, and have ggod flow through the system. My next move is to try another compressor. When I pulled this one out to flush it out, it had no oil in it ( zero, zip, nada ), and spins freely. So I can only imagine it is not pumping or compressing. With no oil, it can’t be good, but I did recheck the orifice tube and no crap in it now.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), > My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been > replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in > the > system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the > expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other > similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be > reading > about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the > pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no > leaks > in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I > will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and > Hayne’s > both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is > replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that > this is > not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil > and > freon. > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this > bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier > for me > to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going > south, it > was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing? > John, not to sound belittling, but the reason the orifice tube and the > dryer are replaced is not to make the mechanic rich, but to get EVERY > last bit of contamination out of your A/C system. I’m having the dryer > and orifice tube replaced along with the leaking evaporator on my > Explorer. A $600 job, but the compressor alone for a Explorer can cost > that much. Before you do anything else, do the job right by flushing the > system, putting in a new orifice tube and dryer, and then recharging the > system. Anything else is false economy. Besides, it sounds like you are > doing the work yourself, the parts and refrigerant shouldn’t cost more > than $150 max. > Good luck. I feel for you, this Florida sun is a bitch.

I think this one is a lost cause… maybe once he sweats enough he’ll lower the lazyness level a bit. The pump is the expensive part, its also the fragile part. Lookin around online the dryers have gotten quite a bit cheaper, the orface tube is only a couple bucks, an 6oz bottle of the correct oil for R134A use is like $3.50, and all the o-rings required might cost you $2.50… If the condensor is loaded (I bet his is, he’s just as hard-headed as I was) the price just went up about $100-150. The whole thing is a 2-3 hour job. Mine has worked fine for 2 years now, no leaks (ok, its a half a can down after 2 years, big woop) or hassles. It’s sure nice to jump into the car and cool off right quick. JS

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), > My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been > replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in the > system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the > expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other > similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be reading > about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the > pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no leaks > in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I > will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and Hayne’s > both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is > replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that this is > not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil and > freon. > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this > bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for me > to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going south, it > was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing?

John, not to sound belittling, but the reason the orifice tube and the dryer are replaced is not to make the mechanic rich, but to get EVERY last bit of contamination out of your A/C system. I’m having the dryer and orifice tube replaced along with the leaking evaporator on my Explorer. A $600 job, but the compressor alone for a Explorer can cost that much. Before you do anything else, do the job right by flushing the system, putting in a new orifice tube and dryer, and then recharging the system. Anything else is false economy. Besides, it sounds like you are doing the work yourself, the parts and refrigerant shouldn’t cost more than $150 max. Good luck. I feel for you, this Florida sun is a bitch.

Response:

>Not much can be added to Jim’s advice, except to question whether a 92 was a >134 system or still R12 ? I *thought * they didn’t go to 134 until 93/94 >on the Aerostars. IF that’s the case, and there’s a swapover involved in >the process as well, there’s a whole other host of reasons to replace darn >near everything !

As an owner of a 92 Sport, I can say that they came as R12 systems. Bill Funk Change "g" to "a"

Response:

Yup, they did. The change to R134A didn’t come until ‘94.

Response:

Actually, the last compressor ran excellent…right up until it seized (????) Since I knew I was going to lose the R12 charge, I went ahead and converted. I didn’t find any debris floating around in the system, but I may yet be surprised. Since I hadn’t pulled the orifice as yet, that may be next, but since Jim and Chief suggested replacing the accumulator as well, I suppose I should. After all, is said and done, I’m a computer geek. I have had to deal with refrigeration systems in over 20 years. You managed to get a cool system and not evac the system? I’ve never had real good luck with that. I’m impresed. The Nebraska humidity puts Florida and the deep south to shame. It’s bloody miserable today…100 degree heat and 72% humidity.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), > My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been > replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in the > system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the > expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other > similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be reading > about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the > pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no leaks > in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I > will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and Hayne’s > both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is > replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that this is > not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil and > freon. > Well, you’re dealing with a pretty bitchy pump in this case. Thanks Ford! > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this > bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for me > to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going south, it > was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing? > My experience was similar. I believe what happens is the R12 oil vs the > R134A might create a flammible substance. When my system did what > you’re describing I found a LOT of crud in the system – enough to > totally clog the condensor ($$) and orface tube. I found sludge, metal, > and plastic… > #1 – tear it all apart, clean every inch of it with LOTS of 92% rubbing > alcohol (any pharmacy will have it). This includes the upper hose set. > I’m still using my original factory upper hose set – its survived the > abuse of R12, R134A, and severe overpressurization. Be careful not to > expose yourself to too much of this stuff, it will kick your ass in a > not so happy way. > Once clean, you should find ‘not much’ back pressure on any given part… > #2 – I found my condensor was clogged up and would not unclog. > Apparently pump-bits found their way into there… $150 later the > system worked nicely. > #3 – replace the orface tube. This is at the coupling by the passenger > exhaust manifold between the flex hose and the condensor. Removing the > airbox will get you pretty easy access. They call for a tool to remove > the orface tube, personally I was able to get at it with some grippy > hemostats > #4 – replace the dryer. Bloop there goes $30. > #5 – drain pump carefully, fill with R134A friendly oil, drain, refill, > etc… until what comes out is clean. I was too chicken to pour > alcohol into the pump IIRC (hey, its been a few years). > #6 – replace all o-rings with green ones (black O-rings don’t like R134A > friendly oils) re-oil everything with PAG or whatever (the R134A > friendly stuff), and recharge. > #7 – engine overheating at idle with the A/C on. Needed a fan clutch. > #8 – after all the drama my pressure switch was leaking (would kick the > compressor off when the system had plenty of pressure, I guess the > diaphragm had a hole popped in it). I wanna say that cost me $8 > Also ONLY REFILL THE SYSTEM WITH 70% OF ITS R12 CAPACITY. Overfilling > R134A seems to cause some really odd things to occur. > Personally I didn’t have access to a pump to pull the system down with, > so I went ahead and left in "one atmosphere" of moist texas summer > air… I’m sure it didn’t do the system any favors, but hey it works. > Officially my AC repair has outlasted two transmission overhauls. on a > 95F day it blows 37-40Fish at highway speed on panel air, next to the > top fan setting. On a 90F or cooler day, it’ll hang near freezing. > JS

Response:

It was R12, now R134A. Yes, lots of hoses and stuff, butit has ben evac’d and flushed, as it were. I like to have people take care of things I don’t have tools for, simply because I don’t like buying parts repetitively….better to replace it and have neessary stuff done. As I had said, the pressure is 40-45 on the LP side. I don’t have a fitting to gauge the HP side.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Not much can be added to Jim’s advice, except to question whether a 92 was a > 134 system or still R12 ? I *thought * they didn’t go to 134 until 93/94 > on the Aerostars. IF that’s the case, and there’s a swapover involved in > the process as well, there’s a whole other host of reasons to replace darn > near everything ! > Also, many A*’s had a REAR evaporator and thousands of miles of hoses as > well that must be flushed. > Sounds like a money shredder to me > good luck with it! > I’m going to have to assume a couple of things….. the pressures you are > reading are low side pressures?? and that the old compressor was replaced > with no other work (other than the recharge) to the system?? > When a compressor fails internally there’s all kinds of little bits and > pieces that used to be compressor that infiltrate the rest of the system. > I > think that you’ll find (at the very least) that the orofice tube and > condenser are both plugged off. If you are real lucky, none of this crap > has > made it around to your new compressor (the viscious circle starts here). > I’m not sure who is training folks to avoid servicing the rest of the > system > when replacing a pooched compressor but I think you are seeing the > validity > of "cutting costs" in this manner. When I replace a compressor because of > an internal failure, the car gets a new condenser, orofice tube and > receiver/drier…… there is no way on Gods green earth that I am about > to > risk giving away free parts and labour because I didn’t do what should > have > been done. Additionally, the evaporater core is back flushed as are all > the > hoses (though I have changed hoses with mufflers in them). If all of the > old > stuff isn’t spotless clean inside, we are only rolling the dice to see how > long before we repeat the process……. > We need to remember that these compressors aren’t compressing liquid, they > are compressing a gas and, as such, their internal tolerances are really > very fine. It doesn’t take much wear to have a system that just doesn’t > perform well enough to keep most customers happy. Like I keep saying, I’m > spendy…. very spendy – but after the sticker-shock wears off, my > customers > are happy. > Back to your problem…. if I were presented with your car in it’s current > state, I would replace the "usual" parts and, quite likely, the > compressor…. in my mind, it is now suspect and I would have some real > concerns about offering any kind of warranty (or even releasing the car) > with what amounts to a ticking time bomb under the hood. > If you will be performing the work yourself, I’d suggest replacing the > "usual" parts and flushing the remainder of the system very, very well. > Ensure that the correct amount of oil is added and evac/recharge. > I realize that this is an old car and that pouring this much money into it > may not be financially feasable, but it makes less sense to waste money > through inadequate repairs. > HTH > > Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), > > My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been > > replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in > the > > system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the > > expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other > > similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be > reading > > about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the > > pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no > leaks > > in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I > > will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and > Hayne’s > > both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is > > replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that > this > is > > not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil > and > > freon. > > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this > > bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for > me > > to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going > south, > it > > was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing?

Response:

Okay, replace the accumulator. I debated doing that today. I probably should have. Rather, I removed it, and checked to see if I had a decent flow through, which, I do. There doesn’t appear to be any debris floting around, the oil wasn’t emulsified, but rather clear ( aside from a bit of green dye ). The old compressor had simply ceased to continue operating. No bang, ka-boom, just a froze up without warning. I had it all checked yesterday and they mech said it was likely the accumulator or expansion orifice, same as you, and that the compressor was good…but *I* waited for your answer. So I guess teh next item is another accumulator/dryer unit…….and where exactly is this orifice of which you speak. My Haynes manual says it is replaceable, but where is the little booger at and how do I get to it? I spent most of my day in 100 degree heat resolving issues so I could check the unit, so not it is easier to get to to replace ( I really hate working on old stuff that hasn’t been touched since it was built..parts are usually stuck or rusted in place and a real bear to remove or replace.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m going to have to assume a couple of things….. the pressures you are > reading are low side pressures?? and that the old compressor was replaced > with no other work (other than the recharge) to the system?? > When a compressor fails internally there’s all kinds of little bits and > pieces that used to be compressor that infiltrate the rest of the system. I > think that you’ll find (at the very least) that the orofice tube and > condenser are both plugged off. If you are real lucky, none of this crap has > made it around to your new compressor (the viscious circle starts here). > I’m not sure who is training folks to avoid servicing the rest of the system > when replacing a pooched compressor but I think you are seeing the validity > of "cutting costs" in this manner. When I replace a compressor because of > an internal failure, the car gets a new condenser, orofice tube and > receiver/drier…… there is no way on Gods green earth that I am about to > risk giving away free parts and labour because I didn’t do what should have > been done. Additionally, the evaporater core is back flushed as are all the > hoses (though I have changed hoses with mufflers in them). If all of the old > stuff isn’t spotless clean inside, we are only rolling the dice to see how > long before we repeat the process……. > We need to remember that these compressors aren’t compressing liquid, they > are compressing a gas and, as such, their internal tolerances are really > very fine. It doesn’t take much wear to have a system that just doesn’t > perform well enough to keep most customers happy. Like I keep saying, I’m > spendy…. very spendy – but after the sticker-shock wears off, my customers > are happy. > Back to your problem…. if I were presented with your car in it’s current > state, I would replace the "usual" parts and, quite likely, the > compressor…. in my mind, it is now suspect and I would have some real > concerns about offering any kind of warranty (or even releasing the car) > with what amounts to a ticking time bomb under the hood. > If you will be performing the work yourself, I’d suggest replacing the > "usual" parts and flushing the remainder of the system very, very well. > Ensure that the correct amount of oil is added and evac/recharge. > I realize that this is an old car and that pouring this much money into it > may not be financially feasable, but it makes less sense to waste money > through inadequate repairs. > HTH > Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), > My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been > replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in the > system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the > expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other > similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be reading > about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the > pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no > leaks > in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I > will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and > Hayne’s > both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is > replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that this > is > not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil and > freon. > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this > bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for me > to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going south, > it > was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing?

Response:

Well, you’re dealing with a pretty bitchy pump in this case. Thanks Ford! > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this > bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for me > to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going south, it > was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing?

My experience was similar. I believe what happens is the R12 oil vs the R134A might create a flammible substance. When my system did what you’re describing I found a LOT of crud in the system – enough to totally clog the condensor ($$) and orface tube. I found sludge, metal, and plastic… #1 – tear it all apart, clean every inch of it with LOTS of 92% rubbing alcohol (any pharmacy will have it). This includes the upper hose set. I’m still using my original factory upper hose set – its survived the abuse of R12, R134A, and severe overpressurization. Be careful not to expose yourself to too much of this stuff, it will kick your ass in a not so happy way. Once clean, you should find ‘not much’ back pressure on any given part… #2 – I found my condensor was clogged up and would not unclog. Apparently pump-bits found their way into there… $150 later the system worked nicely. #3 – replace the orface tube. This is at the coupling by the passenger exhaust manifold between the flex hose and the condensor. Removing the airbox will get you pretty easy access. They call for a tool to remove the orface tube, personally I was able to get at it with some grippy hemostats #4 – replace the dryer. Bloop there goes $30. #5 – drain pump carefully, fill with R134A friendly oil, drain, refill, etc… until what comes out is clean. I was too chicken to pour alcohol into the pump IIRC (hey, its been a few years). #6 – replace all o-rings with green ones (black O-rings don’t like R134A friendly oils) re-oil everything with PAG or whatever (the R134A friendly stuff), and recharge. #7 – engine overheating at idle with the A/C on. Needed a fan clutch. #8 – after all the drama my pressure switch was leaking (would kick the compressor off when the system had plenty of pressure, I guess the diaphragm had a hole popped in it). I wanna say that cost me $8 Also ONLY REFILL THE SYSTEM WITH 70% OF ITS R12 CAPACITY. Overfilling R134A seems to cause some really odd things to occur. Personally I didn’t have access to a pump to pull the system down with, so I went ahead and left in "one atmosphere" of moist texas summer air… I’m sure it didn’t do the system any favors, but hey it works. Officially my AC repair has outlasted two transmission overhauls. on a 95F day it blows 37-40Fish at highway speed on panel air, next to the top fan setting. On a 90F or cooler day, it’ll hang near freezing. JS

Response:

Not much can be added to Jim’s advice, except to question whether a 92 was a 134 system or still R12 ? I *thought * they didn’t go to 134 until 93/94 on the Aerostars. IF that’s the case, and there’s a swapover involved in the process as well, there’s a whole other host of reasons to replace darn near everything ! Also, many A*’s had a REAR evaporator and thousands of miles of hoses as well that must be flushed. Sounds like a money shredder to me good luck with it!

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), > My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been >replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in the >system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the >expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other >similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be reading >about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the >pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no leaks >in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I >will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and Hayne’s >both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is >replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that this is >not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil and >freon. > Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this >bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for me >to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going south, it >was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing?

I have to agree with Jim. Your desire to save money does not make parts serviceable. When I worked on AC, I often had customers tell me that, *because they wanted to save money*, parts were OK, and didn’t need to be replaced. It just doesn’t work that way. When a compressor goes, it often grenades, spewing metal everywhere in the system. That metal must be removed; if that means replacing parts, that’s part of the cost of having AC that works. Bill Funk Change "g" to "a"

Response:

Hey, Jim ( or anyone with a good answer ), My A/C is blowing hot. It blew a compressor, that has since been replaced. The unit has been evac’d and had 2.5 pounds of R134A put in the system. Why is it still blowing hot? Do I need to be looking at the expansion valve ( not real sure where to look for that ) or some other similar item I’m apparently missing? I know the pressure should be reading about 40-45 PSI, but it’s showing a pressure of 100 PSI. If I bleed the pressure off to bring the pressure down it doesn’t help. There are no leaks in the system, but I’m afraid that if it continues at higher pressures I will eventually burn up this compressor ( or worse ). Chilton’s and Hayne’s both say to replace the dryer ( accumulator ) when the compressor is replaced, but experience and training in the past has taught me that this is not necessary, as long as the system is evac’d and fresh charge of oil and freon. Breathing issues aside, it is just plain uncomfortable to drive this bugger at this time of year without A/C, and it does make it easier for me to breathe ( asthma ) while driving. Prior to the compressor going south, it was a right chilly A/C unit.. What am I missing?

Response:

I’m going to have to assume a couple of things….. the pressures you are reading are low side pressures?? and that the old compressor was replaced with no other work (other than the recharge) to the system?? When a compressor fails internally there’s all kinds of little bits and pieces that used to be compressor that infiltrate the rest of the system. I think that you’ll find (at the very least) that the orofice tube and condenser are both plugged off. If you are real lucky, none of this crap has made it around to your new compressor (the viscious circle starts here). I’m not sure who is training folks to avoid servicing the rest of the system when replacing a pooched compressor but I think you are seeing the validity of "cutting costs" in this manner. When I replace a compressor because of an internal failure, the car gets a new condenser, orofice tube and receiver/drier…… there is no way on Gods green earth that I am about to risk giving away free parts and labour because I didn’t do what should have been done. Additionally, the evaporater core is back flushed as are all the hoses (though I have changed hoses with mufflers in them). If all of the old stuff isn’t spotless clean inside, we are only rolling the dice to see how long before we repeat the process……. We need to remember that these compressors aren’t compressing liquid, they are compressing a gas and, as such, their internal tolerances are really very fine. It doesn’t take much wear to have a system that just doesn’t perform well enough to keep most customers happy. Like I keep saying, I’m spendy…. very spendy – but after the sticker-shock wears off, my customers are happy. Back to your problem…. if I were presented with your car in it’s current state, I would replace the "usual" parts and, quite likely, the compressor…. in my mind, it is now suspect and I would have some real concerns about offering any kind of warranty (or even releasing the car) with what amounts to a ticking time bomb under the hood. If you will be performing the work yourself, I’d suggest replacing the "usual" parts and flushing the remainder of the system very, very well. Ensure that the correct amount of oil is added and evac/recharge. I realize that this is an old car and that pouring this much money into it may not be financially feasable, but it makes less sense to waste money through inadequate repairs. HTH

Response:

Draft Coming Back Again

admin — Thu, 03 Jun 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> 4. when Other Bad People see that you respond to aggression and attack by > actually dismantling the enemy’s ability to commit aggression, the Other Bad > People tend to not attack. > Now, find fault with that. > Mark (Student of human nature and history) Dunning > MSgt, USAF (Ret.) > An eye for an eye has never worked. Agression begats agression.

World War II in general, in so far as protecting OTHERS from oppression. Pearl Harbor specifically, for a violent attack on US citizens. Turn our back after being attacked? I don’t think so. Japan plan, concerning Pearl Harbor, was to PUNISH us for shutting down their supply of easy oil, and to cripple our ability to respond. Funny how that little bit of aggression was being steered by oil! IF someone comes after us (i.e. 9-11) then the only thing that they will recognize is vioilent retaliation! > Becoming a bigger bully than the bully no way to stop bullying.

But it protects you and I, to some extent, in the future. I would rather have some protection than none. Being thought of, in the international community, as a war monger WILL make others think that we are willing to go to war over any reason. Whether this is true or not, is irrelevant. All that matters is what others THINK. Remember the Warsaw Ghetto. > "That which violence wins for us today another act of violence may > wrest from us tomorrow." - Francisco Ferrer

It all depends on who starts the violence! Poke me in the eye, and I will break your arm. This WILL make you think twice before you poke me again. > "The apologist for oppression becomes himself the oppressor. To > palliate crime is to be guilty of its perpetration. To ask for a > postponement of the case, till a more convenient season, is to call > for a suspension of the moral law, and to assume that is right to do > wrong under present circumstances." - William Garrison > Find fault with that.

Your interpretation of this very statement is faulty from the beginning, irregardless of what the author thought when he penned this. This is the very thinking that tried to lead the US in a policy of non-aggression during BOTH World Wars. History has taught most of us that apologizing for oppression is a sign to others that we are weak and will be a pushover for anyone who wants to further their own regime of oppression. Which is how we wound up being involved in both of those campaigns.

Response:

with those comments next you will be saying "oh no i am not a rascist" when anyone who spouts such evilities against fellow humans clearly is D-DAY 60 the fight was against the Nazis,those Nazis now in the UK are BNP and UKIP,please dont detray the bravery of those people and vote for either of these parties. several vets today both americans and Brits said the fight was against Nazi facism and not the people of Gemrany/Italy etc. a nazi clearly is there in the writer of Mr Moor as immigrants were dealt with by Nazis in gas ovens in 39-45,shame on you for being such a traitor in supporting the holocaust and genocide today.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Who will bet against it coming back in Britain. During the first gulf war

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> with those comments next you will be saying > "oh no i am not a rascist" > when anyone who spouts such evilities against fellow humans clearly is > D-DAY 60 the fight was against the Nazis,those Nazis now in the UK are BNP > and UKIP,please dont detray the bravery of those people and vote for either > of these parties. > several vets today both americans and Brits said the fight was against Nazi > facism and not the people of Gemrany/Italy etc. > a nazi clearly is there in the writer of Mr Moor > as immigrants were dealt with by Nazis in gas ovens in 39-45,shame on you > for being such a traitor in supporting the holocaust and genocide today.

Racist? To be honest a racist views some races as inferior to others. There is in my view no race of people any better or worse than any other. I am no more a Nazi than you are, a Nazi views people with different genes as inferior to those of himself, I do not, do you? The only people who accuse others of extremism are those who see themselves as extremists and are therefore paving the way for the time when they can put themselves in a position as to enact that extremism. As for the people who bang on about Jews and gas ovens, are these the ones who would happily endorse the same actions only one the condition that they are referred to a Zionists? In my honest opinion the whining left wingers are the true successors to the flame of the Third Reich, everyone else can see what is happening but their own zealous blind bigotry makes them blind, deaf and daft to the true direction that they are heading in. As I printed, it is also the supporters of the swamping of Britain that should be thrown out of an RAF Hercules over the North Sea at 35,000 feet, I would gladly volunteer to push the buggers out. As for the foreigners, well they are just the bullets, it is the people who do the firing we should watch out for.

Response:

>Racist? To be honest a racist views some races as inferior to others. >There is in my view no race of people any better or worse than any >other.

Then clearly you have not watched the NBA. — Map Of The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy: http://www.freewebs.com/vrwc/ "When you see all that rhetorical smoke billowing up from the Democrats, well ladies and gentleman, I’d follow the example of their nominee; don’t inhale." –Ronald Reagan

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 4. when Other Bad People see that you respond to aggression and attack by > actually dismantling the enemy’s ability to commit aggression, the Other Bad > People tend to not attack. > Now, find fault with that. > Mark (Student of human nature and history) Dunning > MSgt, USAF (Ret.) > An eye for an eye has never worked. Agression begats agression. > Becoming a bigger bully than the bully no way to stop bullying. > "That which violence wins for us today another act of violence may > wrest from us tomorrow." - Francisco Ferrer > "The apologist for oppression becomes himself the oppressor. To > palliate crime is to be guilty of its perpetration. To ask for a > postponement of the case, till a more convenient season, is to call > for a suspension of the moral law, and to assume that is right to do > wrong under present circumstances." - William Garrison > Find fault with that.

Except that never happened in any point in history…. The only successful nation building was the US building Germany and Japan. Using that dirty rotten violence you detest. Your means to peace is recorded in the League of Nations and UN disasters. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

||An eye for an eye has never worked. Agression begats agression. ||Becoming a bigger bully than the bully no way to stop bullying. || ||"That which violence wins for us today another act of violence may ||wrest from us tomorrow." - Francisco Ferrer || ||"The apologist for oppression becomes himself the oppressor. To ||palliate crime is to be guilty of its perpetration. To ask for a ||postponement of the case, till a more convenient season, is to call ||for a suspension of the moral law, and to assume that is right to do ||wrong under present circumstances." - William Garrison "Peace in our time" – Neville Chamberlain, 1939 Texas Parts Guy

Response:

An eye for an eye has never worked. Agression begats agression. Becoming a bigger bully than the bully no way to stop bullying. "That which violence wins for us today another act of violence may wrest from us tomorrow." - Francisco Ferrer "The apologist for oppression becomes himself the oppressor. To palliate crime is to be guilty of its perpetration. To ask for a postponement of the case, till a more convenient season, is to call for a suspension of the moral law, and to assume that is right to do wrong under present circumstances." - William Garrison Find fault with that.

Response:

> >Who will bet against it coming back in Britain. During the first gulf war >over a decade ago the govt didn’t know exactly what the outcome could be so >conscription papers were secretly printed up. There has been talk of >introducing a semi voluntary conscription, I would assume that all they have >to do is press print and drive an overnight bill through Parliament. There >have been rumblings about the strength of the military of late by senior >members of HM Govt. > Presumably the BNP would begin by drafting all the immigrants, then if > they didn’t turn up, use that as proof they didn’t consider themselves > British, and deport them.

Many of the illegal immigrants, even more so the people who support them certainly need drafting. Maybe for a start they could be taken for a ride in an RAF Hercules and dropped off nowhere in particular at 35,000 ft without a parachute! Don’[t get me wrong, I'm not a member of the BNP or even a BNP voter, I am a p****d off taxpayer and I would support anyone who had the guts to do something positive for this country for a change.

Response:

> >Draft dilemma >They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. >But it's such a vote loser, no one wants to mention it > http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp

Snopes lists this as "probably not true," then covers its butt by saying that even if passed, a draft by spring 2005 is "unlikely." It also admits that policy could change very quickly. The claims are in no way debunked. -- Gregory Gadow for Washington State House Independent, District 43 http://www.gregory-gadow.info

Response:

Who will bet against it coming back in Britain. During the first gulf war over a decade ago the govt didn't know exactly what the outcome could be so conscription papers were secretly printed up. There has been talk of introducing a semi voluntary conscription, I would assume that all they have to do is press print and drive an overnight bill through Parliament. There have been rumblings about the strength of the military of late by senior members of HM Govt.

Response:

In uk.politics.misc on Fri, 4 Jun 2004 at 22:20:13, MrMoor wrote : >Who will bet against it coming back in Britain. During the first gulf war >over a decade ago the govt didn't know exactly what the outcome could be so >conscription papers were secretly printed up. There has been talk of >introducing a semi voluntary conscription, I would assume that all they have >to do is press print and drive an overnight bill through Parliament. There >have been rumblings about the strength of the military of late by senior >members of HM Govt.

Presumably the BNP would begin by drafting all the immigrants, then if they didn't turn up, use that as proof they didn't consider themselves British, and deport them. -- Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

Response:

> There has been talk of > introducing a semi voluntary conscription, I would assume that all > they have to do is press print and drive an overnight bill through > Parliament.

That would hardly be unobtrusive, though. For quite some time, late night sittings have been exceptional: http://www.parliament.uk/works/commonsgeneral.cfm#hours

Response:

Go ahead, haul ass back to the "old country". See how much of your salary gets taken back by the government. Oh, and on the way, visit Dachau and Auschwitz. Maybe then you'll see what happens when Bad People run countries, and are not opposed by civilized people. Oh, but you'll need to use a sailboat to get to the old country, because you don't want to be associated with the use of oil, by using an airplane or an oil powered boat. Oh, and continue to practice the "diplomacy" that led to the Islamisits to ATTACK OUR COUNTRY. I'm sure that will make everything nice. Is that pretty much the thought process you're using at the University of Minnesota? Try this on for size: 1. when somebody attacks you, go after and kill them. 2. when you have neutralized the threat, go after a way to prevent further threats. 3. If you see a similar threat, try to neutralize that threat. 4. when Other Bad People see that you respond to aggression and attack by actually dismantling the enemy's ability to commit aggression, the Other Bad People tend to not attack. Now, find fault with that. Mark (Student of human nature and history) Dunning MSgt, USAF (Ret.)

- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -> In a perverse sense, I hope efforts to reinstate the draft succeeds. > I'm too old. But all of the middle-of-the-road supporters of > pre-emptive wars on manufactured pretexts are going to think very > carefully about who they vote for if their son (or daughter) is going to > go off and fight another oil war. > The problem is that, like during Vietnam, the upper-class chickenhawks > will recieve all the corrupted deferments they need while Joe Sixpacks' > son (maybe daughter this time) is sent to go fight for Halliburton and > Exxon and failed foreign policy (based on aggression instead of diplomacy). > If I was in my great-grandfather's shoes today, I'd think twice about > renouncing my Danish citizenship and coming to America to raise my > family. If the draft is reinstated, I'll be taking my kids back to the > old country and chalk it up as a good idea back in 1895, but not > necessarily the best deal for the working class in 2004. > Draft dilemma > They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. > But it's such a vote loser, no one wants to mention it > "...On the same day that Ashcroft was terrifying his countrymen, > I was emailed by an American student friend. He too is > terrified. "The US legislature," he wrote, "is trying to bring > back the draft asap. Check it out at www.congress.org. > For some reason no major news networks or printed media > in this country are carrying this story. If these bills go through, > the only thing between me and military service is my asthma." > He's right. There is pending legislation in the American House > of Representatives and Senate in the form of twin bills - S89 and > HR163. These measures (currently approved and sitting in the > committee for armed services) project legislation for spring > 2005, with the draft to become operational as early as June 15. > There already exists a Selective Service System (SSS). All young > Americans are obliged to "register for the draft". It has been a mere > formality since conscription was abolished three decades ago, after > Vietnam, together with the loathed (and much burned) draft card. > SSS will be reactivated imminently. A $28m implementation fund > has been added to the SSS budget. The Pentagon is discreetly > recruiting for 10,350 draft board officers and 11,070 appeals > board members nationwide. > Draft-dodging will be harder than in the 1960s. In December 2001, > Canada and the US signed a "smart border declaration", which, > among other things, will prevent conscientious objectors (and cowards) > from finding sanctuary across the northern border. There will be no > deferment on higher-education grounds. Mexico does not appeal. > All this has been pushed ahead with an amazing lack of publicity. > One can guess why. American newspapers are in a state of meltdown, > distracted by war-reporting scandals at USA Today and the New > York Times. There is an awareness in the press at large that the > "embedding" system was just that - getting into bed with the military > and reporting their pillow talk as "news from the frontline". The fourth > estate has failed the American public and continues not to do its job." > John Sutherland > Monday May 31, 2004 > The Guardian > Full article at: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1228178,00.html

Response:

> >> They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. >Hopefully you'll be one of the first to get scooped up > Are you kidding, I wanna get scooped up. The first draftees are the > ones who get to fly the black helicopters when the NWO takes over! > [Or is that the DNRC? 8*]

More likely you will end up patrolling the streets in an APC on Iraq, Syria Iran or wherever the neo-cons want you to go next when a plug of molten metal from an RPG7 blows of your genitals and arsehole. If your lucky you get to shit through a colostomy bag while you pay prostitutes to let you perform cunilingus on THEM.

Response:

>Draft dilemma >They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. >But it’s such a vote loser, no one wants to mention it

http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/draft.asp

Response:

> They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US.

Hopefully you’ll be one of the first to get scooped up, then you’ll be too busy doing pushups to spam energy newsgroups, idiot.

Response:

>> They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. >Hopefully you’ll be one of the first to get scooped up

Are you kidding, I wanna get scooped up. The first draftees are the ones who get to fly the black helicopters when the NWO takes over! [Or is that the DNRC? 8*] — William Smith ComputerSmiths Consulting, Inc. www.compusmiths.com

Response:

> Draft dilemma > They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US.

Just ensure your doors and windows are adequately sealed. That will prevent any drafts. Col — So where are they, Mr Blair?

Response:

In a perverse sense, I hope efforts to reinstate the draft succeeds. I’m too old. But all of the middle-of-the-road supporters of pre-emptive wars on manufactured pretexts are going to think very carefully about who they vote for if their son (or daughter) is going to go off and fight another oil war. The problem is that, like during Vietnam, the upper-class chickenhawks will recieve all the corrupted deferments they need while Joe Sixpacks’ son (maybe daughter this time) is sent to go fight for Halliburton and Exxon and failed foreign policy (based on aggression instead of diplomacy). If I was in my great-grandfather’s shoes today, I’d think twice about renouncing my Danish citizenship and coming to America to raise my family. If the draft is reinstated, I’ll be taking my kids back to the old country and chalk it up as a good idea back in 1895, but not necessarily the best deal for the working class in 2004. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Draft dilemma > They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. > But it’s such a vote loser, no one wants to mention it > "…On the same day that Ashcroft was terrifying his countrymen, > I was emailed by an American student friend. He too is > terrified. "The US legislature," he wrote, "is trying to bring > back the draft asap. Check it out at www.congress.org. > For some reason no major news networks or printed media > in this country are carrying this story. If these bills go through, > the only thing between me and military service is my asthma." > He’s right. There is pending legislation in the American House > of Representatives and Senate in the form of twin bills – S89 and > HR163. These measures (currently approved and sitting in the > committee for armed services) project legislation for spring > 2005, with the draft to become operational as early as June 15. > There already exists a Selective Service System (SSS). All young > Americans are obliged to "register for the draft". It has been a mere > formality since conscription was abolished three decades ago, after > Vietnam, together with the loathed (and much burned) draft card. > SSS will be reactivated imminently. A $28m implementation fund > has been added to the SSS budget. The Pentagon is discreetly > recruiting for 10,350 draft board officers and 11,070 appeals > board members nationwide. > Draft-dodging will be harder than in the 1960s. In December 2001, > Canada and the US signed a "smart border declaration", which, > among other things, will prevent conscientious objectors (and cowards) > from finding sanctuary across the northern border. There will be no > deferment on higher-education grounds. Mexico does not appeal. > All this has been pushed ahead with an amazing lack of publicity. > One can guess why. American newspapers are in a state of meltdown, > distracted by war-reporting scandals at USA Today and the New > York Times. There is an awareness in the press at large that the > "embedding" system was just that – getting into bed with the military > and reporting their pillow talk as "news from the frontline". The fourth > estate has failed the American public and continues not to do its job." > John Sutherland > Monday May 31, 2004 > The Guardian > Full article at: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1228178,00.html

Response:

Draft dilemma They are going to reintroduce the draft in the US. But it’s such a vote loser, no one wants to mention it "…On the same day that Ashcroft was terrifying his countrymen, I was emailed by an American student friend. He too is terrified. "The US legislature," he wrote, "is trying to bring back the draft asap. Check it out at www.congress.org. For some reason no major news networks or printed media in this country are carrying this story. If these bills go through, the only thing between me and military service is my asthma." He’s right. There is pending legislation in the American House of Representatives and Senate in the form of twin bills – S89 and HR163. These measures (currently approved and sitting in the committee for armed services) project legislation for spring 2005, with the draft to become operational as early as June 15. There already exists a Selective Service System (SSS). All young Americans are obliged to "register for the draft". It has been a mere formality since conscription was abolished three decades ago, after Vietnam, together with the loathed (and much burned) draft card. SSS will be reactivated imminently. A $28m implementation fund has been added to the SSS budget. The Pentagon is discreetly recruiting for 10,350 draft board officers and 11,070 appeals board members nationwide. Draft-dodging will be harder than in the 1960s. In December 2001, Canada and the US signed a "smart border declaration", which, among other things, will prevent conscientious objectors (and cowards) from finding sanctuary across the northern border. There will be no deferment on higher-education grounds. Mexico does not appeal. All this has been pushed ahead with an amazing lack of publicity. One can guess why. American newspapers are in a state of meltdown, distracted by war-reporting scandals at USA Today and the New York Times. There is an awareness in the press at large that the "embedding" system was just that – getting into bed with the military and reporting their pillow talk as "news from the frontline". The fourth estate has failed the American public and continues not to do its job." John Sutherland Monday May 31, 2004 The Guardian Full article at: http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1228178,00.html

Response:

laparoscopic fundoplication side effects, alternatives, pros, cons et.

admin — Mon, 24 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi Group; I’m considering a laparoscopic fundoplication and would appreciate feedback from others who have undergone the procedure or possible alternative procedures. I am a 45yo male with Barrett’s esophagus diagnosed 4 years ago. I have intermittent episodes where I aspirate reflux in my sleep and become ill for several days with flu like symptoms. I also have allergies and worsening asthma. I am 45-50 lbs overweight. I’ve had two endoscopies; the last one was March last year. He determined that I have about 25% of my LES left. At that time my gastroenterologist recommended I consider surgery in a year or so if I could wait that long because more data would be available on new procedures (other than the fundoplication ) to treat GERD. He suggested I lose weight, elevate the head of my bed, restrict my diet and schedule my final meal several hours prior to bedtime. I have successfully elevated the head of my bed. My primary MD referred me to a surgeon and he does not do any procedure for GERD other than (laproscopic ) fundoplication and does not recommend any other procedure. He also stated that in the event that I had a hiatal hernia the fundoplication was defiantly the procedure of choice. The surgeon required more data and subsequently last week I had a barium swallow test, 24hr pH monitoring and esophageal manometry study. I do not know the results of the pH test or manonmetry tests yet, but the radiologist conducting the barium swallow exam mentioned that I had a 4-5cm hiatal hernia. Curious about the recovery period, side effects and impact I visited a web site: http://www.gicare.com/pated/epdlv02.htm Which stated: "The patient is usually started on clear liquids the first day after surgery and discharged later that day. The five tiny incisions heal quickly leaving only slight blemishes. Typically the patient returns to normal activities within a week. A soft diet is recommended for 1 to 2 weeks. Pain is very minimal, usually requiring no medication after 1-2 days." I got the impression from my surgeon that there were potentially very uncomfortable side effects including bloating, gas and diarrhea for an extended period of time. Also from the group I’ve gotten the impression that the recovery time is considerably longer. In any of the news groups experience is this an accurate description of recovery period? Pros? Cons? Alternatives? Help? Thanks -2shy2say

Response:

> The surgeon required more data and subsequently > last week I had a barium swallow test, 24hr pH monitoring and > esophageal manometry study. I do not know the results of the pH test > or manonmetry tests yet, but the radiologist conducting the barium > swallow exam mentioned that I had a 4-5cm hiatal hernia.

You’ll want to know the results of both the pH test and the manometry before proceeding. > Curious about the recovery period, side effects and impact I visited a > Which stated: "The patient is usually started on clear liquids the > first day after surgery and discharged later that day. The five tiny > incisions heal quickly leaving only slight blemishes. Typically the > patient returns to normal activities within a week. A soft diet is > recommended for 1 to 2 weeks. Pain is very minimal, usually requiring > no medication after 1-2 days."

I’ll give my experiences: 1. 3 years after a laporoscopic Nissen, my GERD is all but gone, although I’ll have to admit that in addition to the Nissen I had some lifestyle changes (no more habitual coffee drinking, and I tend to exercise a lot of moderation when eating foods that used to irritate my GERD). I still take acid-control medication on a very infrequent basis. 2. In most Nissens, the wrap is tight enough that belching is either impossible or difficult, and as a result you will probably have more problems with gas bloating and flatulence. However, many people with GERD tend to swallow air as well to help relieve the suffering, and sometimes learn to stop swallowing air after the procedure. Myself, I had some noticeable bloating and gas issues after the surgery, by 3 years later it’s seldom an issue. 3. 2 weeks of requiring a soft diet sounds too short to me. Both myself and two friends who have had Nissens agree that 4 weeks before normal swallowing is closer to the norm, and for the first few weeks you’ll have to be *very* meticulous about chewing your food thoroughly. Having food "stick" on the way down is not fun. 4. 3 years after the fact, only one of the 5 scars is easily visible. 5. I was one of the small percentage of people who had post-surgical complications (subcutaneous emphysema resulting from trapped gas from the procedure), which required a return to the hospital, two days recovery, and a fair bit of pain, but it’s not all that common (Howard?). 6. If you’ve been taking acid-suppressing drugs, going off of them will muck up your digestion for a while. The biggest alternative I’ve heard of is the Stretta, which I’m sure others can comment on more (Howard?). — Richard W Kaszeta http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The surgeon required more data and subsequently > last week I had a barium swallow test, 24hr pH monitoring and > esophageal manometry study. I do not know the results of the pH test > or manonmetry tests yet, but the radiologist conducting the barium > swallow exam mentioned that I had a 4-5cm hiatal hernia. > You’ll want to know the results of both the pH test and the manometry > before proceeding. > Curious about the recovery period, side effects and impact I visited a > Which stated: "The patient is usually started on clear liquids the > first day after surgery and discharged later that day. The five tiny > incisions heal quickly leaving only slight blemishes. Typically the > patient returns to normal activities within a week. A soft diet is > recommended for 1 to 2 weeks. Pain is very minimal, usually requiring > no medication after 1-2 days." > I’ll give my experiences: > 1. 3 years after a laporoscopic Nissen, my GERD is all but gone, > although I’ll have to admit that in addition to the Nissen I had some > lifestyle changes (no more habitual coffee drinking, and I tend to > exercise a lot of moderation when eating foods that used to irritate > my GERD). I still take acid-control medication on a very infrequent basis. > 2. In most Nissens, the wrap is tight enough that belching is either > impossible or difficult, and as a result you will probably have more > problems with gas bloating and flatulence. However, many people with > GERD tend to swallow air as well to help relieve the suffering, and > sometimes learn to stop swallowing air after the procedure. Myself, I > had some noticeable bloating and gas issues after the surgery, by 3 > years later it’s seldom an issue. > 3. 2 weeks of requiring a soft diet sounds too short to me. Both > myself and two friends who have had Nissens agree that 4 weeks before > normal swallowing is closer to the norm, and for the first few weeks > you’ll have to be *very* meticulous about chewing your food > thoroughly. Having food "stick" on the way down is not fun. > 4. 3 years after the fact, only one of the 5 scars is easily visible. > 5. I was one of the small percentage of people who had post-surgical > complications (subcutaneous emphysema resulting from trapped gas from > the procedure), which required a return to the hospital, two days > recovery, and a fair bit of pain, but it’s not all that common (Howard?). > 6. If you’ve been taking acid-suppressing drugs, going off of them > will muck up your digestion for a while. > The biggest alternative I’ve heard of is the Stretta, which I’m sure > others can comment on more (Howard?).

Stretta and Enteryx really won’t be of benefit in someone with a 4-5 cm hiatus hernia. Note that the diagnosis and severity of a hiatus hernia is best made at EGD, not UGI. I consider UGI a waste of time, money, and rads in cases of GERD. Additionally, ambulatory pH testing is completely irrelevant in the OP’s case since he has Barrett’s esophagus. The diagnosis of GERD is not in doubt. That was another waste of time and money. Oh well… I agree that it sounds like the OP’s only viable option is gastric fundoplication. Richard’s comments about that procedure above are dead on, IMHO, based on my experience having done hundreds of laparoscopic gastric fundoplications. I have never seen subcutaneous emphysema that required a return to the hospital with laparoscopic surgery. I have not seen diarrhea as a complication. If the surgeon accidently cut the vagus nerves, however, diarrhea would be a possble complication. Some caveats: -one should make sure that his/her surgeon is a skilled laparoscopist. Fundoplication is a difficult procedure to do that way and is definitely not for rookies. -if there is indeed a 4-5 cm hiatus hernia, this takes the difficulties of the procedure to a different level. The surgeon has to deal with the hernia sac, and avoid entering the chest cavity in doing so. The biggest problem is whether or not there has been shortening of the esophagus (what level is the Z-line?). If the surgeon can’t get a MINIMUM of 3 cm of distal esophagus to lay below the hiatus (after closure) WITHOUT TENSION, then the chance of the wrap slipping back up into the chest is significant ("slipped Nissen") and the chance of recurrence of GERD is high. The surgeon needs to be prepared to lengthen the esophagus if necessary. Favored technique for that used to be Collis gastroplasty, now is wedge gastroplasty. Difficult for the inexperienced. Wedge gastroplasty is a new technique. I just did one for the first time two weeks ago – it went well. HMc

Response:

Howard and Richard thank you very much for your responses! Pardon my ignorance, but what do EGD and UGI represent? The caveats are noted and I will discuss them with the surgeon. The surgeon I discussed surgery with will be contacting me today with test results. He left a message stating that I was an excellent candidate for the surgery. During our initial interview I asked the surgeon how many of these procedures that he as performed and he said over 150. My GP referred me to a surgeon who referred me to another surgeon in his office. How does one find out who the best surgeon is for this procedure? I did a google search on my surgeons name and nothing came up… Could the group suggest a way to find a surgeon’s surgeon or recommend the most experienced surgeon available in the San Diego area (that accepts Pacificare POS?) I will inform the group of new events. Thank you again. 2shy2say – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some caveats: > -one should make sure that his/her surgeon is a skilled laparoscopist. > Fundoplication is a difficult procedure to do that way and is definitely not > for rookies. > -if there is indeed a 4-5 cm hiatus hernia, this takes the difficulties of > the procedure to a different level. The surgeon has to deal with the hernia > sac, and avoid entering the chest cavity in doing so. The biggest problem is > whether or not there has been shortening of the esophagus (what level is the > Z-line?). If the surgeon can’t get a MINIMUM of 3 cm of distal esophagus to > lay below the hiatus (after closure) WITHOUT TENSION, then the chance of the > wrap slipping back up into the chest is significant ("slipped Nissen") and > the chance of recurrence of GERD is high. The surgeon needs to be prepared > to lengthen the esophagus if necessary. Favored technique for that used to > be Collis gastroplasty, now is wedge gastroplasty. Difficult for the > inexperienced. Wedge gastroplasty is a new technique. I just did one for the > first time two weeks ago – it went well. > HMc

Response:

> Howard and Richard thank you very much for your responses! > Pardon my ignorance, but what do EGD and UGI represent?

Acronyms for the tests you talked about: EGD: Esophagogastroduodenoscopy, or just "endoscopy" as they probably called it when talking to you. UGI: Upper Gastrointestinal Series, which is what the "Barium Swallow" test was. — Richard W Kaszeta http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Howard and Richard thank you very much for your responses! > Pardon my ignorance, but what do EGD and UGI represent? > The caveats are noted and I will discuss them with the surgeon. > The surgeon I discussed surgery with will be contacting me today with > test results. He left a message stating that I was an excellent > candidate for the surgery. During our initial interview I asked the > surgeon how many of these procedures that he as performed and he said > over 150. > My GP referred me to a surgeon who referred me to another surgeon in > his office. How does one find out who the best surgeon is for this > procedure? > I did a google search on my surgeons name and nothing came up… > Could the group suggest a way to find a surgeon’s surgeon or recommend > the most experienced surgeon available in the San Diego area (that > accepts Pacificare POS?) > I will inform the group of new events. > Thank you again.

It’s encouraging that the surgeon that you saw first referred you to another surgeon, and that that one has done 150 of these procedures. It suggests that he is pretty well along on the learning curve. General concensus among surgeons is that it takes at least 30 laparoscopic gastric fundoplications to be considered skilled at the procedure, and also suggests that he would have the experience to deal with a large hiatus hernia. I can’t help you at all with surgeons in San Diego. I do know that Dr. Tom DeMeester at USC in Los Angeles is easily one of the world’s leading experts on laparoscopic anti-reflux surgery, and UCLA has one of the world’s leading GERD programs. No idea about Pacificare, but these two programs are at the pinnacle of GERD diagnosis and treatment. http://www.surgery.medsch.ucla.edu/general/gerd_index.shtml Good luck HMc

Response:

heartburn-help.com is the best site on the internet for information and discussion.

Response:

Thank you everybody for your helpful information and especially those professionals who give freely of their time to ease the suffering of others. -Sean

Response:

Dumb Question – '92 s10 Blazer

admin — Mon, 24 May 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

>> Should be 4.5 quarts but 5 would also be OK. Ran 5 in my 94 with no > problems, running 5 in my 2000 with no problems. >My wifey’s 4.3 calls for 4.5 quarts, but 5 quarts brings the level just >below the "full" line. You find the same thing? >Doc

Yeah, around there. I took the old truck to a Mobil station and paid the $43 to have them do the change with Mobil 1. The last time I took it in they mentioned to me that they were doing that, I hadn’t noticed any issues with it so they did it that time also. I think I’ll check the level in my 2000, see how that one’s doing, did my first change in April, have at least one long trip coming up this week. Looked at the color of the oil over the weekend, still looks good, coming up on 2K since the change. I know the truck isn’t leaking oil, sure hope it’s not burning… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Does anyone know off-hand what the oil capacity is for the 4.3 liter? > > Engine is stock, with remote oil filter and oil cooler in radiator, > >both also stock. > > Every time I get an oil change I end up with the dipstick showing that > >the oil is over full by at least 1 qt. > > This happens no matter what I say to the service writer. Apparently the > >service tech’s always "know best". > > I know the simplest fix would be to do it myself, but medical > >conditions (asthma, emphysema, two heart attacks) make that very > >difficult. > > Thanks in Advance > >N.M.W.B.A.o.O.

Response:

Should be 4.5 quarts but 5 would also be OK. Ran 5 in my 94 with no problems, running 5 in my 2000 with no problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Does anyone know off-hand what the oil capacity is for the 4.3 liter? > Engine is stock, with remote oil filter and oil cooler in radiator, >both also stock. > Every time I get an oil change I end up with the dipstick showing that >the oil is over full by at least 1 qt. > This happens no matter what I say to the service writer. Apparently the >service tech’s always "know best". > I know the simplest fix would be to do it myself, but medical >conditions (asthma, emphysema, two heart attacks) make that very >difficult. > Thanks in Advance >N.M.W.B.A.o.O.

Response:

> Should be 4.5 quarts but 5 would also be OK. Ran 5 in my 94 with no > problems, running 5 in my 2000 with no problems.

My wifey’s 4.3 calls for 4.5 quarts, but 5 quarts brings the level just below the "full" line. You find the same thing? Doc – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Does anyone know off-hand what the oil capacity is for the 4.3 liter? > Engine is stock, with remote oil filter and oil cooler in radiator, >both also stock. > Every time I get an oil change I end up with the dipstick showing that >the oil is over full by at least 1 qt. > This happens no matter what I say to the service writer. Apparently the >service tech’s always "know best". > I know the simplest fix would be to do it myself, but medical >conditions (asthma, emphysema, two heart attacks) make that very >difficult. > Thanks in Advance >N.M.W.B.A.o.O.

Response:

Does anyone know off-hand what the oil capacity is for the 4.3 liter? Engine is stock, with remote oil filter and oil cooler in radiator, both also stock. Every time I get an oil change I end up with the dipstick showing that the oil is over full by at least 1 qt. This happens no matter what I say to the service writer. Apparently the service tech’s always "know best". I know the simplest fix would be to do it myself, but medical conditions (asthma, emphysema, two heart attacks) make that very difficult. Thanks in Advance N.M.W.B.A.o.O.

Response:

Flawed Vacuum Cleaners.

admin — Sun, 25 Apr 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, New Web Page. http://www.edginton.info/arc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

I think you overstate the facts. —- Again!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years > of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal > cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

You forgot , of course, Central house Vacs. And how about the outside venting ones, No dust blown in, all blown outside.. Just to remind you of course.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power > taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten > years of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments > on the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found > at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase > personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

It sounds like whut yall bees describling is one of them thar house cats. Since one of the descriptions is the fact that they blow, perhaps yall could recover some of that thar to regenerate some sort of usefull thang like an air ionizer. Maybe they should have named this group >>> ALT.ENERGY.HOME.ELECTRICAL.POWER DAVE (COB)

Response:

haven’t you spammed usenet enough with this? — Steve Spence Renewable energy and sustainable living http://www.green-trust.org Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels.

Response:

>>Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > Please stop now, before you get as bad as that Feerguy. > Posting the same crap over and over will accomplish nothing, > except to earn you a pathetic kind of fame in the bowels of > a thousand killfiles.

Bjay isn’t reading the newgroup, just posting his spam. Insult him all you want to, the idiot won’t notice. He’s made a trivial change to standard vacuum cleaner design, and is hyping it like crazy hoping to sell cheap underpowered "cleaners" at absurdly inflated prices. CM

Response:

I have only just realized what has been happening Virgin my server have been having trouble and consequently I have only just received all the posting. My replies to news groups did not show up on the news group and I have had to resort to a number of test postings to find this out. I have to apologies for any inconvenience or frustration I have caused. My only purpose is to bring to the attention of mankind a better and safer way of cleaning their home and to save the vast amount of power that is being wasted. Spaming is the last thing I want to inflict on anyone. Bjay – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > haven’t you spammed usenet enough with this? > — > Steve Spence > Renewable energy and sustainable living > http://www.green-trust.org > Donate $30 or more to Green Trust, and receive > a copy of Joshua Tickell’s "From the Fryer to > the Fuel Tank", the premier documentary of > biodiesel and vegetable oil powered diesels. > Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. > The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken > from UK Wind Farms. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten > years > of testing. > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information. > More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, > http://www.edginton.info/project1 > http://www.edginton.info/cafc > Ben Edginton > An Extract from information on the Home page > "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase > personal > cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." > North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Please let me try explain, in the Air Recycling Cleaner because the air is >returned at pressure to the intake of the cleaning head the amount of energy >required to do a given amount of work is reduced. this allows the motor to >be much smaller in size or the power to the motor can be reduced. >In the machine that is shown on my web pages cleaning up a pile of hairs and >dust, the input to the motor is turned down to 250 watts. >because of this the heat that it generates is less than the heat generated >by the 1500 watt plus conventional vacuum cleaners. > I concede it will be reduced, but not by much. You are introducing air > into the atmosphere over various surfaces, dropping the pressure.

I have just pointed out that 1500 watts has been reduced to 250 watts. >The model of cleaner I now use for my prototypes has a paper dust bag, and >because of the smaller motor power and reduced backpressure in the Air >Recycling Cleaner, will separate and contain the dust that becomes suspended >in the air stream. > All filtering systems have their limits, and your PPM of untrapped > microparticles will climb – just as dirt accumulates in the bag > and heat accumulates in the air. >the volume of air drawn into the cleaner is complimented by an equal

amount of air that is returned from the motor. >The expansion chambers compensate for heat expansion caused by any >change of temperature of the air as it passes through the motor. >It has not been found necessary to use independent cooling for the motor. >But surely the Dyson cleaners blow out large volumes of air into the room >and this disturbs dust and germs lying about in the room > That’s an assumption, not a fact. Walking, running, pets, fans, >sea-breezes, children etc, also disturb ‘dust and germs’ lying > about in the room. This Dyson model (DC05) actually blows air > to the rear and slightly upwards.

possibly back towards your face ? I don’t know if you remember the old (GE?) Satellite cleaner – the > globe style that blew air out the bottom. Now *that* really > did disturb the air.

Yes I still have one somewhere probably in the attic collecting dust >The energy waste is a very important to many people who would think >it more important than the health issue.

> >By bringing the two arguments together I hope to encourage >Government action on this matter. > That’s a bad premise for a business model. Fixing two wrongs > won’t make it right for gov’t attention.

Two for the price of one sounds good to me but I will have to wait and see. > Add a solar charger and you might hit gold. After all, there > are many robotic domestic cleaners that don’t use wires.

I think I will stick to what I am doing now if you don’t mind. . >It has taken over ten years to bring it to its present stage and >some of the things you mention were at one time troublesome but >have now been satisfactorily overcome.

I don’t see how you can be so knowledgeable about my Air Recycling Cleaner, as you have never tried one you can only make assumptions about it. But if you ever come this way email me and I will arrange for you to get hands on experience of an air recycling cleaner and I feel sure you would then change your opinion and realise it is a superior cleaner. 1/.No smell, 2/.Light to push, 3/.More work for less power. 4/.Quieter in use. 5./Does not blow air back into the room, 6/.Safe for Asthmatics to use. what more can you want. http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Cheers Ben Edginton

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly. > Clearly, there are better alternatives than the typical cheap > plastic glorified carpet sweeper that most people seem to > purchase. I don’t think your particular unit is the best > alternative. > Central vacuum systems release contaminated air outside the home > environment. Any air they "blow" (as opposed to "suck") is on > the exhaust side and therefore away from furniture or the inside > air. I don’t know about how much energy they use but since a > vacuum cleaner is used for only brief periods of time this does > not seem very important. In fact, a unit that uses a lot more > power but for much shorter periods of time (say, it has a lot > more suction) would use much less total energy. I don’t think > it’s possible to get a vacuum cleaner without some noise but a > central vac has the power unit in an entirely different part of > the building so I think that’s as close as you can get. Lastly, > no vacuum cleaner should smell. If it does then that indicates > a malfunction of some kind. > Anthony

But they do sell scent sachets to put into the dust container. Thanks for your interest . Ben http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

>More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, >http://www.edginton.info/project1 >http://www.edginton.info/cafc > I don’t buy the argument that recycled air reduces the > power consumption dramatically, and I also don’t see > anywhere that addresses the technical problems that > would be faced by such a cleaner, namely that recycled > air using a traditional motor fan/pass-thru cooling would > overheat in minutes.

Please let me try explain, in the Air Recycling Cleaner because the air is returned at pressure to the intake of the cleaning head the amount of energy required to do a given amount of work is reduced. this allows the motor to be much smaller in size or the powered to the motor can be reduced. In the machine that is shown on my web pages cleaning up a pile of hairs and dust, the input to the motor is turned down to 250 watts. because of this the heat that it generates is less than the heat generated by the 1500 watt plus conventional vacuum cleaners. > Recycled air in a perfectly closed environment will also > heat up, but not to the detriment of the motor if it has > separate cooling. > I didn’t see what your solution for filtering was. A closed > system will gather fine particles and eventually saturate > the air being used. Given that the system is not a perfectly > closed environment, the system will undoubtedly shed air during > operation, and without perfect filtering, leave the usual trace > of microfine particulates in its wake. > I would guess that the system would shed about 20% of the air > volume through various seal and head flow inefficiencies. If it > were pushing through 100cfm, that’s 20cfm of loss.

The model of cleaner I now use for my prototypes has a paper dust bag, and because of the smaller motor power and reduced backpressure in the Air Recycling Cleaner, will separate and contain the dust that becomes suspended in the air stream. In practice there is no shedding of air, the volume of air drawn into the cleaner is complimented by an equal amount of air that is returned from the motor.The expansion chambers compensate for heat expansion caused by any change of temperature of the air as it passes through the motor. It has not been found necessary to use independent cooling for the motor. > The motor load comes from pushing air through a filter, > and no matter what you do about recovering the air, the > filter remains a constant, if not rising load factor. > IMHO, you can’t have a decent recycled air system without > using a cyclone and a really large area HEPA filter to decrease > the pressure and achieve your ‘low consumption’ targets.

–> Research made by the, North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK. Says that. High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats. I have pasted a copy with links onto my web pages. Your first step is to licence a proper cyclone from Dyson > and then back it up with an appropriate motor design and > microfine particulate filter, and finally make something > that resembles a steroidal Dyson because of the return > flow tubes.

The cyclone system does nothing special for the air recycling cleaner but I see your point. > I dislike upright cleaners and your designs are nominal. > I’m not saying that it can’t or shouldn’t be done, just > that this isn’t a bolt-on solution and that the demand > will not be universal. You might replace 1 in 50 > cleaners over a decade, and that’s big money if you > create a realistic solution. > But your science and your facts will have to be very > very good indeed to trounce Dyson in the low-emission machine > stakes,

But surely the Dyson cleaners blow out large volumes of air into the room and this disturbs dust and germs lying about in the room >and believe me, Dyson will take your > and give it a lab test to see if it lives up to its > claims.

He has probably already already built and tested an air recycling cleaner but I don’t think he would ever market anything to put his own machine into second place. > And price? Well, that’s another story. I paid 400 pounds > for the Dyson just because of what it was, and I don’t > care if it uses 100W or 2000W providing it performs. > Consumption just isn’t a factor. > All that windmill & windfarm crap is argumentative fluff that > has no bearing at all on the main purpose of the cleaner – > that of providing a contaminant-reducing cleaning system. You > are adding an emotional argument on an already reasonable > position. > You have to decide which is important. Consumption or > contamination.

The energy waste is a very important to many people who would think it more important than the health issue, By bringing the two arguments together I hope to encourage Government action on this matter. Thank you for replying to my posting, I hope I have answered some of your questions, it is difficult to explain to anyone how well this machine works without a demonstration. Forty volunteers tested one in their own home over many weeks. In their written report they said it was better than the machine they normally used , these included Dyson cyclone cleaners It has taken over ten years to bring it to its present stage and some of the things you mention were at one time troublesome but have now been satisfactorily overcome. http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

>1/.No smell,

Doubtful. When the system shuts off, the overburdened small air volume will leak out, if not by itself when switched off, then when opened up unless you whip it outside just as you turn it off. >2/.Light to push,

Lighter than what? Only the airflow has changed. >3/.More work for less power.

Still not convinced. >4/.Quieter in use.

Well, if you aren’t pumping as much air, of course. >5./Does not blow air back into the room,

Except for 20%, imho. >6/.Safe for Asthmatics to use.

I’m an Asthmatic, they’ve always been safe except for the worst cleaner designs with the most sensitive ‘matics. >what more can you want.

Something more convincing than untested theory. I know you guys have hacked together a prototype or three, but your claims for the possible end product go beyond my assessment of it. So that’s a big IMHO from me and a challenge for you. I say it will leak, it will be of insufficient power and have operational problems from under-engineering. Ask Sir Clive. He knows the ultimate price of under-engineering. His products never lasted in the marketplace. You have to have a concept of what it means to have a 2% return rate for faults, and what a disaster it is to have 10% returned for not performing as claimed. Do you know how traditional makers will combat your model? They’ll simply say that theirs has better suction and a more ‘efficient’ motor with three times the power. For your product to become a defacto standard that people will still buy in 2020 because it satisfies their needs, you have to excel in just one factor that is important to the product. I’m telling you now, it is not the power consumption. The only products I’ve purchased based on consumption are lights. If I was the marketer/investor for this product, I would seize on the most important element of its reason for existence and transform the entire product around that one thing. So, I’ve had my say, you’ve had yours. I’m not saying don’t do it, just to do one thing really well and take the consequences of the pursuit of excellence in one direction as your *next* challenge. S —

Response:

I need to reiterate something I only touched on lightly before… If you recycle the air and your particulate sizes are below your filter’s ability to hold them, they will build up in the air and you’ll have a rather dense few litres of suspended nasties to contend with when you’ve finished. If, however, your filter does trap everything and lets only clean air out, you don’t need to recycle the air, as a simple upward exhaust with a low pressure dissipation will suffice. So I now doubt that the focus was ever on anything as useful as a low-allergy device, but simply on lower power through recycling with a potential ‘bonus’ of helping the allergy stricken. I should’ve worked that out a little quicker that it was an ass-backwards scheme when I first read your Windmill lecture. S —

Response:

>Please let me try explain, in the Air Recycling Cleaner because the air is >returned at pressure to the intake of the cleaning head the amount of energy >required to do a given amount of work is reduced. this allows the motor to >be much smaller in size or the powered to the motor can be reduced. >In the machine that is shown on my web pages cleaning up a pile of hairs and >dust, the input to the motor is turned down to 250 watts. >because of this the heat that it generates is less than the heat generated >by the 1500 watt plus conventional vacuum cleaners.

I concede it will be reduced, but not by much. You are introducing air into the atmosphere over various surfaces, dropping the pressure. There’s no such thing as a "no work" situation as the air velocity will level out according to the overall efficiency of the input and output sides of the airflow loop. Your 250W motor *might* achieve the same as a 500W open in/out cleaner if all design factors were in your favour. As pointed out, however, by one other poster, wattage is not an issue to buyers, and consumption reduction is useful but not mandatory. You need considerable suction to pick up sand and other small/heavy particles. The majority of the wattage goes towards achieving a velocity given the other factors of bag/cyclone/hose/head/fan. The air will heat up and while you might conceivably dissipate enough heat from cooling a small motor, the small volume of recycled air will heat up to an unacceptable level. You just can’t keep adding heat into the loop without taking it out somewhere – hence the need to separate motor cooling from the cycle, as I believe you will find that 250W isn’t enough. >The model of cleaner I now use for my prototypes has a paper dust bag, and >because of the smaller motor power and reduced backpressure in the Air >Recycling Cleaner, will separate and contain the dust that becomes suspended >in the air stream.

All filtering systems have their limits, and your PPM of untrapped microparticles will climb – just as dirt accumulates in the bag and heat accumulates in the air. >In practice there is no shedding of air,

Sorry, but as soon as it enters the atmosphere, turbulence and various low pressure zones will mean that some cycled air will be lost and replaced with external air, plus leakage points. >the volume of air drawn into the >cleaner is complimented by an equal amount of air that is returned from the >motor.The expansion chambers compensate for heat expansion caused by any >change of temperature of the air as it passes through the motor. >It has not been found necessary to use independent cooling for the motor. >But surely the Dyson cleaners blow out large volumes of air into the room >and this disturbs dust and germs lying about in the room

That’s an assumption, not a fact. Walking, running, pets, fans, sea-breezes, children etc, also disturb ‘dust and germs’ lying about in the room. This Dyson model (DC05) actually blows air to the rear and slightly upwards. I don’t know if you remember the old (GE?) Satellite cleaner – the globe style that blew air out the bottom. Now *that* really did disturb the air. >The energy waste is a very important to many people who would think >it more important than the health issue. >By bringing the two arguments together I hope to encourage >Government action on this matter.

That’s a bad premise for a business model. Fixing two wrongs won’t make it right for gov’t attention. The right way to marketing is to solve the most popular problem as step one and sell it. Then introduce a low power model as step two if you can retain the effiencies of the first model. Add a solar charger and you might hit gold. After all, there are many robotic domestic cleaners that don’t use wires. >It has taken over ten years to bring it to its present stage and >some of the things you mention were at one time troublesome but >have now been satisfactorily overcome.

Perhaps, but you are assuming rather much. I’d like to hear your method of proof for 100% containment, because that’s the biggest claim you have that will be shot down in the first lab test. S —

Response:

> The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. > 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. > 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. > 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. > 4/. They are noisy and smelly.

Clearly, there are better alternatives than the typical cheap plastic glorified carpet sweeper that most people seem to purchase. I don’t think your particular unit is the best alternative. Central vacuum systems release contaminated air outside the home environment. Any air they "blow" (as opposed to "suck") is on the exhaust side and therefore away from furniture or the inside air. I don’t know about how much energy they use but since a vacuum cleaner is used for only brief periods of time this does not seem very important. In fact, a unit that uses a lot more power but for much shorter periods of time (say, it has a lot more suction) would use much less total energy. I don’t think it’s possible to get a vacuum cleaner without some noise but a central vac has the power unit in an entirely different part of the building so I think that’s as close as you can get. Lastly, no vacuum cleaner should smell. If it does then that indicates a malfunction of some kind. Anthony

Response:

>More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, >http://www.edginton.info/project1 >http://www.edginton.info/cafc

I don’t buy the argument that recycled air reduces the power consumption dramatically, and I also don’t see anywhere that addresses the technical problems that would be faced by such a cleaner, namely that recycled air using a traditional motor fan/pass-thru cooling would overheat in minutes. Recycled air in a perfectly closed environment will also heat up, but not to the detriment of the motor if it has separate cooling. I didn’t see what your solution for filtering was. A closed system will gather fine particles and eventually saturate the air being used. Given that the system is not a perfectly closed environment, the system will undoubtedly shed air during operation, and without perfect filtering, leave the usual trace of microfine particulates in its wake. I would guess that the system would shed about 20% of the air volume through various seal and head flow inefficiencies. If it were pushing through 100cfm, that’s 20cfm of loss. The motor load comes from pushing air through a filter, and no matter what you do about recovering the air, the filter remains a constant, if not rising load factor. IMHO, you can’t have a decent recycled air system without using a cyclone and a really large area HEPA filter to decrease the pressure and achieve your ‘low consumption’ targets. Your first step is to licence a proper cyclone from Dyson and then back it up with an appropriate motor design and microfine particulate filter, and finally make something that resembles a steroidal Dyson because of the return flow tubes. I dislike upright cleaners and your designs are nominal. I’m not saying that it can’t or shouldn’t be done, just that this isn’t a bolt-on solution and that the demand will not be universal. You might replace 1 in 50 cleaners over a decade, and that’s big money if you create a realistic solution. But your science and your facts will have to be very very good indeed to trounce Dyson in the low-emission stakes, and believe me, Dyson will take your machine and give it a lab test to see if it lives up to its claims. And price? Well, that’s another story. I paid 400 pounds for the Dyson just because of what it was, and I don’t care if it uses 100W or 2000W providing it performs. Consumption just isn’t a factor. All that windmill & windfarm crap is argumentative fluff that has no bearing at all on the main purpose of the cleaner – that of providing a contaminant-reducing cleaning system. You are adding an emotional argument on an already reasonable position. You have to decide which is important. Consumption or contamination. That’s my opinion on your proposition. S —

Response:

Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

I never vacuum. Some people are still living in the 20th century. Just set your phasor to clean and zap that dust away. Even Tesla used free energy to zap his dust away. The truth is out there, just ask George Bush.

Response:

Flawed Vacuum Cleaner video clip.

admin — Sun, 22 Feb 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Re Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. Since first posting this subject we have produce a small Video Clip to demonstrate just how efficient the Air Recycling Cleaner, is. See http://www.edginton.info/arc The original posting said, The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

… > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information.

… If you’ve got a better mouse trap then the world will beat it’s own path to your door. If all you have is hogwash then no amount of Government force is going to get people to swallow it. People with good products don’t need the government to impress people. Anthony

Response:

> … > But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their > designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on > the importance of this project and to spread the information. > … > If you’ve got a better mouse trap then the world will beat it’s own > path to your door. If all you have is hogwash then no amount of > Government force is going to get people to swallow it. People with > good products don’t need the government to impress people. > Anthony

That is not what Thomas Edison thought Anthony Below is an extract from his book. Quotes from, Edison, His Life And Inventions. There are three stages in all great inventions: The first, in which people said the thing could not be done; The second, in which they said anybody could do it; And the third, in which they said it had always been done by everybody. One of the greatest delusions of the public in regard to any notable invention is the belief that the world is waiting for it with open arms and an eager welcome. The exact contrary is the truth. There is not a single new art or device the world has ever enjoyed of which it can be said that it was given an immediate and enthusiastic reception. The way of the inventor is hard. He can sometimes raise capital to help him in working out his crude conceptions, but even then it is frequently done at a distressful cost of personal surrender. When the result is achieved the invention makes its appeal on the score of economy of material or of effort; and then “labor” often awaits with crushing and tyrannical spirit to smash the apparatus or forbid its very use. Where both capital and labor are agreed that the object is worthy of encouragement, there is still the supreme indifference of the public to overcome, and the stubborn resistance of pre-existing devices to combat. The years of hardship and struggle are thus prolonged, the chagrin of poverty and neglect too frequently embitters the inventor’s scanty bread; and one great spirit after another has succumbed to the defeat beyond which lay the procrastinated triumph so dearly earned. Even in America, where the adoption of improvements and innovations is regarded as so prompt and sure, and where the huge tolls of the Patent Office and the courts bear witness to the ceaseless efforts of the inventor, it is impossible to deny the sad truth that unconsciously society discourages invention rather than invites it Re Flawed Vacuum Cleaners. Since first posting this subject we have produce a small Video Clip in order to demonstrate just how efficiently the Air Recycling Cleaner will perform. See http://www.edginton.info/arc The original posting said, The Vacuum Cleaners we use have many major flaws. 1/. They release contaminated air back into the home environment. 2/. They blow dust from furniture allowing it to become air born. 3/. They needlessly waste large amounts energy. The 22 million cleaners used in the UK waste almost all the power taken from UK Wind Farms. 4/. They are noisy and smelly. An alternative to the Vacuum Cleaner exists and has undergone over ten years of testing. But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments on the importance of this project and to spread the information. More information about the "Air Recycling Cleaner" can and be found at, http://www.edginton.info/project1 http://www.edginton.info/cafc Ben Edginton An Extract from information on the Home page "High-efficiency particulate arrest-filter vacuum cleaners increase personal cat allergen exposure in homes with cats." North West Lung Centre, Wythenshawe Hospital, Manchester, UK

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>But because of the reluctance of cleaner manufacturers to change their >>designs, I now call for others to help me to impress their Governments >> on >>the importance of this project and to spread the information. >If you’ve got a better mouse trap then the world will beat it’s own >path to your door. If all you have is hogwash then no amount of >Government force is going to get people to swallow it. People with >good products don’t need the government to impress people. > That is not what Thomas Edison thought Anthony Below is an extract from his > book. > There are three stages in all great inventions: > The first, in which people said the thing could not be done; > The second, in which they said anybody could do it; > And the third, in which they said it had always been done by everybody.

… Nowhere in that quote does he say "The Government must force people to pay for it." You are asking people to convince government leaders to embrace your invention and therefor force it upon an unwilling populace. If your invention was any good then you wouldn’t need guys with guns to force people to buy it. Anthony

Response:

>Nowhere in that quote does he say "The Government must force people >to pay for it." You are asking people to convince government leaders >to embrace your invention and therefor force it upon an unwilling >populace. If your invention was any good then you wouldn’t need guys >with guns to force people to buy it.

He’s trying to get a free ride off asthma and allergies for his low-power suckuvac. It’s all about the power. The system has flaws of fact vs his glowing theory of evolutionary vacuum science. S —

Response:

Anyone have Laporascopic Fundolication?

admin — Thu, 22 Jan 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

What results have you had? How long ago? How was the recovery? I have pretty bad GERD, but no esophegus damage. My symptoms are severe heartburn and throat irritation (all the way up), and tons of reflux of acid and food. Taken medications all my life, but all of a sudden in May 2003 they didn’t work anymore! Developed occasional heart palipitations, really hard to breath (still have hard breathing problem). Had workup for heart (including 48 hr holter), endoscope (showed nothing), 24hr ph (which showed lots of reflux), barium swallow (showed reflux), asthma/allergy workup (showed no allergies and no asthma). Surgeon consult and GI physician consult can’t recommend anything else, but also say they can’t be certain if this would cure my problems. So what’s your experience with the surgery? Thanks a lot, – Kirk

Response:

> What results have you had?

I’m almost entirely off of my heartburn medication, and my endoscopies show that everything is healing. However, for the first year or so after the surgery I still had heartburn, until things cleared up. > How long ago?

3 Years > How was the recovery?

Surgery itself had a longer than normal recovery due to some minor subcutaneous emphysema (bubble in the abdomen working their way up to the skin). That wasn’t fun, but it cleared up in two days. First month after the surgery it was very difficult to swallow anything without it getting stuck and regurgitating, but after about a month it cleared up completely. — Richard W Kaszeta http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > What results have you had? > How long ago? > How was the recovery? > I have pretty bad GERD, but no esophegus damage. My symptoms are severe > heartburn and throat irritation (all the way up), and tons of reflux of acid > and food. Taken medications all my life, but all of a sudden in May 2003 > they didn’t work anymore! Developed occasional heart palipitations, really > hard to breath (still have hard breathing problem). Had workup for heart > (including 48 hr holter), endoscope (showed nothing), 24hr ph (which showed > lots of reflux), barium swallow (showed reflux), asthma/allergy workup > (showed no allergies and no asthma). > Surgeon consult and GI physician consult can’t recommend anything else, but > also say they can’t be certain if this would cure my problems. So what’s > your experience with the surgery?

I’ve not had one, but I have performed several hundred. It’s a good operation, and has the potential to cure GERD. It’s difficult to do, so make sure of your surgeon’s credentials. Most surgeons who do a good job with this operation do a wide range of laparoscopic procedures. If this and laparoscopic gallbladder operations are all he does, I would be a little leery. Ask him how many he’s done, what other laparoscopic operations he does. Side effects might be transient trouble swallowing, aggravated if you eat fast. You may be unable to vomit. You may have trouble belching, which in turn can contribute to bloating and increased farting. Your GERD might recur…there is about and 8-12% failure rate over 3-5 years due to loosening of the wrap. The failure rate is higher in obese people. If your BMI is greater than 35, you should consider bariatric surgery instead. Ask your surgeon or gastroenterologist if you meet the criteria for a Stretta procedure. It’s an excellent alternative. Look at http://www.heartburn-help.com/stretta.htm http://www.curonmedical.com/products/stretta.html HMc

Response:

Thanks for the info. Surgeon says he leans on the looser side. The stretta is not covered by my insurance, neither is the Endocinch…. Figures. – Kirk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What results have you had? > How long ago? > How was the recovery? > I have pretty bad GERD, but no esophegus damage. My symptoms are severe > heartburn and throat irritation (all the way up), and tons of reflux of > acid > and food. Taken medications all my life, but all of a sudden in May 2003 > they didn’t work anymore! Developed occasional heart palipitations, really > hard to breath (still have hard breathing problem). Had workup for heart > (including 48 hr holter), endoscope (showed nothing), 24hr ph (which > showed > lots of reflux), barium swallow (showed reflux), asthma/allergy workup > (showed no allergies and no asthma). > Surgeon consult and GI physician consult can’t recommend anything else, > but > also say they can’t be certain if this would cure my problems. So what’s > your experience with the surgery? > I’ve not had one, but I have performed several hundred. > It’s a good operation, and has the potential to cure GERD. It’s difficult > to do, so make sure of your surgeon’s credentials. Most surgeons who do a > good job with this operation do a wide range of laparoscopic procedures. If > this and laparoscopic gallbladder operations are all he does, I would be a > little leery. Ask him how many he’s done, what other laparoscopic operations > he does. > Side effects might be transient trouble swallowing, aggravated if you eat > fast. You may be unable to vomit. You may have trouble belching, which in > turn can contribute to bloating and increased farting. Your GERD might > recur…there is about and 8-12% failure rate over 3-5 years due to > loosening of the wrap. The failure rate is higher in obese people. If your > BMI is greater than 35, you should consider bariatric surgery instead. > Ask your surgeon or gastroenterologist if you meet the criteria for a > Stretta procedure. It’s an excellent alternative. Look at > http://www.heartburn-help.com/stretta.htm > http://www.curonmedical.com/products/stretta.html > HMc

Response:

> Thanks for the info. Surgeon says he leans on the looser side. The stretta > is not covered by my insurance, neither is the Endocinch…. Figures.

Are you sure that’s current? A lot of policiies are covering Stretta now. Note that due to the simpler procedure, the Stretta is cheaper. I seem to recall around 1/3 the price of the fundoplication, but I’m sure Howard knows way better than I do. (And Howard, if you read this, out of curiousity, does having the Stretta done affect your candidacy for a fundoplication if the Stretta doesn’t work?) — Richard W Kaszeta http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

Response:

Yup, stretta is "investigational" and not covered. Just read it from the online medical policies from Excellus BCBS website. Information posted 12/10/03. – Kirk

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks for the info. Surgeon says he leans on the looser side. The stretta > is not covered by my insurance, neither is the Endocinch…. Figures. > Are you sure that’s current? A lot of policiies are covering Stretta > now. > Note that due to the simpler procedure, the Stretta is cheaper. I > seem to recall around 1/3 the price of the fundoplication, but I’m sure Howard knows way > better than I do. > (And Howard, if you read this, out of curiousity, does having the > Stretta done affect your candidacy for a fundoplication if the Stretta > doesn’t work?) > — > Richard W Kaszeta > http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

Response:

Blue Cross/Blue Shield will do anything to avoid increasing their payouts, so a large number of new, easier, and less invasive procedures are declared "investigational" which results in discouraging more people from availing themselves of these procedures. It’s cheaper to have someone on medication and medical therapy for 4.5 years than it is to pay for a Stretta procedure once, and if the Stretta were a covered service, then more people would be using that option than medication. BCBS makes a big show of their dedication to patient care quality, but I can tell you it’s about the money with them. A Stretta does not create any problems for subsequent fundoplication if that is needed. HMc

Response:

An alternative to the Stretta procedure is the The Gatekeeper System by Medtronic. The Gatekeeper System consists of an endoscopic delivery system and individual prostheses made of a biocompatible material (similar to the substance used in contact lenses). Although dry when inserted near the lower esophageal sphincter, the prostheses expand upon contact with moisture. In effect, this creates a barrier that is designed to allow food and liquids to pass normally into the stomach, while restricting acid and other stomach contents from refluxing back up into the oesophagus. The Gatekeeper System is performed with endoscopic view controlling implant sites. Usually, only one pass of the endoscope is required. Unlike some other endoscopic therapies, the prostheses are removable if necessary. There is some info on this system at the following site in the UK. http://www.synecticsmedical.com/full.php?id=46 Regards Geoff

Response:

Questions on Organic Alternatives to Sugar

admin — Thu, 18 Sep 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum disease. 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b vitamins and minerals. 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from the tea tree. 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness is due to the same molecules as sugar. 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or spreads, often organically grown. 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B vitamins. 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so unhealthy. Best, Kenneth

Response:

Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at all? — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all > that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been > researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I > know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. > Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at > http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: > 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with > negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum > disease. > 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low > in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights > gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. > 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of > calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b > vitamins and minerals. > 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the > calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, > and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. > 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is > often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from > the tea tree. > 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very > high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness > is due to the same molecules as sugar. > 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the > blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or > spreads, often organically grown. > 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, > millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B > vitamins. > 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is > actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of > calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. > 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to > raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so unhealthy. > Best, > Kenneth

Response:

> I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all > that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been > researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I > know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. > Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at

Oh, not again! Stevia is illegal to sell as a sweetener in this country (USA). It is banned in some other countries. And I’ve heard it tastes really bad. I would avoid it at all costs. I’ve seen no evidence to say that other artificial sweeteners are unsafe. Yes, I’ve seen warnings, but they are totally unwarrented and patently lies. > 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with > negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum > disease.

But probably not safe. At least it can’t be sold here as a sweetener and it is banned in many places. > 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low > in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights > gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning.

Not sure what this is, but does it contain carbs? > 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of > calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b > vitamins and minerals.

How do you know it raises BG more gently? Does it not contain the same amount of carbs as sugar? > 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the > calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, > and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old.

And it will raise your BG just like sugar will. > 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is > often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from > the tea tree.

And it will raise your BG just like sugar will. > 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very > high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness > is due to the same molecules as sugar.

And it will raise your BG just like sugar will. > 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the > blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or > spreads, often organically grown.

And they will raise your BG just like sugar will. Also, they contain fructose and studies have shown this (when extracted and used in concentrated doses) to be bad for diabetics. > 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, > millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B > vitamins.

Don’t know what this is. But probably has a lot of carbs. > 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is > actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of > calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly.

I don’t think this raises BG very slowly, and studies have shown it to be bad for diabetics. High fructose corn syrup has also been linked as a possible cause for obesity. > 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to > raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so

unhealthy. Don’t know about that. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

Well then by all means use the "organic" substances, and suffer the consequences. Personally I will continue to use "artificial" (haha) sweeteners. Let’s see whose Bgs are better. Keep us posted! Sleepy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all >that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been >researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I >know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. >Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at >http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: > 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with >negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum >disease. > 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low >in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights >gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. > 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of >calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b >vitamins and minerals. > 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the >calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, >and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. > 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is >often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from >the tea tree. > 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very >high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness >is due to the same molecules as sugar. > 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the >blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or >spreads, often organically grown. > 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, >millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B >vitamins. > 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is >actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of >calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. > 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to >raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so unhealthy. >Best, >Kenneth

Support bacteria. They’re the only culture some people have

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at >all? >– >t2_lurking >geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom >Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete) > I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all > that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been > researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I > know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. > Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at > http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: > 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with > negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum > disease. > 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low > in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights > gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. > 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of > calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b > vitamins and minerals. > 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the > calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, > and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. > 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is > often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from > the tea tree. > 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very > high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness > is due to the same molecules as sugar. > 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the > blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or > spreads, often organically grown. > 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, > millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B > vitamins. > 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is > actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of > calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. > 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to > raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so >unhealthy. > Best, > Kenneth

A quick look at the list suggests that diabetics can find some alternative "natural" sweeteners that could solve a lot of our problems. However, to an organic chemist, this list isn’t as delightful as it might seem. These sweeteners are either based on fructose, which is considered especially unhealthy for diabetics, or glucose which raises our bG. Many of them add a bit of flavor to the sweetened food, and tend to reduce the rate at which they raise our bG. If you can "cut the dose" because of superior flavor, or if your impaired glucose metabolism can keep up with the retarded release of glucose into the blood, then some of the substitutes will do well for you. However, none of them are the "magic bullet" which will let us casually eat "naturally-sweetened" desserts while avoiding augmenting our insulin in order to do so. 1. Fructose: At first glance, fructose sounds like an ideal sweetener since it raises bG so slowly. However, the latest findings on fructose indicate that it is bad for normies, and very bad for Insulin Resistant folks. It degrades the already poor T2 lipid profiles. http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_28.htm "The organization’s (ADA) new statement, which is in the January 2002 issue of Diabetes Care and available on-line at no charge at http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/1/202, for the first time, however, says that we should avoid fructose other than that which occurs naturally in fruit. This is in spite of the fact that fructose causes less of a rise in blood glucose than sugar. Specifically, its glycemic index is 32 (where white bread = 100), while table sugar (sucrose) has a GI of 92. Then, why avoid fructose? Because "fructose may adversely effect plasma lipids," the ADA says. . . . . .While the new statement didn’t cite sources for the effect of fructose on lipids, they are easily found. One person who has campaigned vigorously against fructose for years is Nancy Appleton, the author of Lick the Sugar Habit (Garden City Park, N.Y.: Avery Publishing Group, 1996). Ms. Appleton writes on page 90 of her book: Dr. J. Hallfrisch studied cholesterol and triglyceride levels and found that fructose, unfortunately, caused a general increase in both the total serum cholesterol level and the low-density lipoprotein fraction of cholesterol in most subjects. The triglyceride levels also rose significantly, especially in those persons whose blood sugar levels rise higher than normal when they eat sugar. It was concluded that high levels of dietary fructose can produce undesirable changes in blood lipid levels, which are associated with heart disease. . . ." (BTW: Quentin has found this statement repeated in very reputable scientific journals) 2. Barley Syrup is essentially Maltose. Maltose is two molecules of glucose stuck together. It splits in the digestive system and enters our bodies as glucose. Its effect on bG is going to be a function of how fast your digestive system processes the maltose, and the amount you feel is necessary to add to food to produce the desired sweetness. 3. Table Sugar: Sucrose Sucrose is a molecule containing one molecule of glucose and one molecule of fructose stuck together. It is split in our digestive systems to form a mix of 50% glucose and 50% fructose. One could argue that the worst thing table sugar does to a diabetic is load us with all that fructose. 4. Honey is a mixture of fructose, glucose and a little bit of maltose and sucrose (table sugar). http://www.ento.vt.edu/~fell/apiculture/HoneyComposition/honey_compos… tm Fructose 38%, Glucose 31%, Maltose 7% sucrose ~1.2 As such, it contains about as much fructose as table sugar (that 7% maltose ends up as glucose) and is just as hazardous to our lipid profiles. 5. Maple syrup is mostly "table sugar" dissolved in water with a few flavoring ingredients. http://ohioline.osu.edu/b856/b856_77.html: Sucrose 90-100% , glucose 0-10% 6. Molasses is mostly sucrose with a bit of glucose and fructose http://www.rhhall.ie/bulletins/molasses_4.htm 7. Amazake is made by breaking down the starch in brown rice to form sugars. Since starch is essentially a polymer of glucose, I would guess that breaking down the starch produces glucose, maltose, and the higher polymers, i.e. a process similar to the manufacture of barley syrup. Nearly all of the starch break-down produces produce glucose in the digestive system. Again, like barley syrup, the rise in bG is a function of how fast your digestive system splits the glucose out, and how much you feel is necessary to add to your meal to produce the desired sweetness. 8. Fruit concentrates are essentially mixtures of glucose, fructose and sucrose. http://www.dorway.com/natsweet.html 9. Fructo-oligosaccharides are non-digestiable. Thus they have some similarities to Splenda in that they sweeten without raising bG. However, they are known to produce gas, bloating and diarrhea. They are considered more of a supplement to improve the mix of gut bacteria when taken in small doses. As such, they are a bit pricey. (U.S. $0.20 /gram) http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=129 10. Stevia: Any mention of stevia tends to start arguments. Note that is banned for use as a sweetener in the U.S., Canada and E.U. http://www.trutinadulcem.com/stevia_update.htm The E.U. has looked at petitions to approve Stevia many a time, but has not removed the ban, e.g. http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/multimedia/webpage/stevia The most potent argument is: ". . .The data considered by the Committee indicated that the extract has the potential to produce adverse effects in the male reproductive system that could affect fertility and that a metabolite produced by the human gut microflora, steviol, is genotoxic (ie. damages DNA). . ." No easy answers, but remember: "If it were easy, they would cut our pay." Regards Old Al

Response:

Keith this is not a place to sell your ares or push alternatives to SAFE sugar substitutes by saying they are unhealthy. In a word or two Get Lost. — Ronnie Ruff So shines a good deed in a weary world. –Willy Wonka– I pray for the power. To turn it around. I’m too old to die young. And too young to die now. Warren Zevon 1980 http://www.livejournal.com/users/ronnie_in_dc

Response:

Great answers Al. Thanks! I learned, or was put on the path to knowledge. — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at >all? >– >t2_lurking >geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom >Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete) >> I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all >> that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been >> researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I >> know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. >> Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at >> http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: >> 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with >> negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum >> disease. >> 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low >> in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights >> gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. >> 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of >> calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b >> vitamins and minerals. >> 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the >> calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, >> and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. >> 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is >> often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from >> the tea tree. >> 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very >> high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness >> is due to the same molecules as sugar. >> 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the >> blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or >> spreads, often organically grown. >> 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, >> millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B >> vitamins. >> 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is >> actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of >> calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. >> 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to >> raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so >unhealthy. >> Best, >> Kenneth > A quick look at the list suggests that diabetics can find some > alternative "natural" sweeteners that could solve a lot of our problems. > However, to an organic chemist, this list isn’t as delightful as it might > seem. These sweeteners are either based on fructose, which is considered > especially unhealthy for diabetics, or glucose which raises our bG. > Many of them add a bit of flavor to the sweetened food, and tend to reduce > the rate at which they raise our bG. If you can "cut the dose" because of > superior flavor, or if your impaired glucose metabolism can keep up with > the retarded release of glucose into the blood, then some of the substitutes > will do well for you. However, none of them are the "magic bullet" which > will let us casually eat "naturally-sweetened" desserts while avoiding > augmenting our insulin in order to do so. > 1. Fructose: At first glance, fructose sounds like an ideal sweetener > since it raises bG so slowly. However, the latest findings on fructose > indicate that it is bad for normies, and very bad for Insulin Resistant > folks. It degrades the already poor T2 lipid profiles. > http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_28.htm > "The organization’s (ADA) new statement, which is in the January 2002 issue > of Diabetes Care and available on-line at no charge at > http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/1/202, for the first > time, however, says that we should avoid fructose other than that which > occurs naturally in fruit. This is in spite of the fact that fructose causes > less of a rise in blood glucose than sugar. Specifically, its glycemic index > is 32 (where white bread = 100), while table sugar (sucrose) has a GI of 92. > Then, why avoid fructose? Because "fructose may adversely effect plasma > lipids," the ADA says. . . > . . .While the new statement didn’t cite sources for the effect of fructose > on lipids, they are easily found. One person who has campaigned vigorously > against fructose for years is Nancy Appleton, the author of Lick the Sugar > Habit (Garden City Park, N.Y.: Avery Publishing Group, 1996). Ms. Appleton > writes on page 90 of her book: > Dr. J. Hallfrisch studied cholesterol and triglyceride levels and found that > fructose, unfortunately, caused a general increase in both the total serum > cholesterol level and the low-density lipoprotein fraction of cholesterol in > most subjects. The triglyceride levels also rose significantly, especially > in those persons whose blood sugar levels rise higher than normal when they > eat sugar. It was concluded that high levels of dietary fructose can produce > undesirable changes in blood lipid levels, which are associated with heart > disease. . . ." > (BTW: Quentin has found this statement repeated in very reputable > scientific journals) > 2. Barley Syrup is essentially Maltose. Maltose is two molecules of > glucose stuck together. It splits in the digestive system and enters our > bodies as glucose. Its effect on bG is going to be a function of how fast > your digestive system processes the maltose, and the amount you feel is > necessary to add to food to produce the desired sweetness. > 3. Table Sugar: Sucrose > Sucrose is a molecule containing one molecule of glucose and one molecule of > fructose stuck together. It is split in our digestive systems to form a mix > of 50% glucose and 50% fructose. One could argue that the worst thing table > sugar does to a diabetic is load us with all that fructose. > 4. Honey is a mixture of fructose, glucose and a little bit of maltose and > sucrose (table sugar).

http://www.ento.vt.edu/~fell/apiculture/HoneyComposition/honey_compos… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> tm > Fructose 38%, Glucose 31%, Maltose 7% sucrose ~1.2 > As such, it contains about as much fructose as table sugar (that 7% maltose > ends up as glucose) and is just as hazardous to our lipid profiles. > 5. Maple syrup is mostly "table sugar" dissolved in water with a few > flavoring ingredients. > http://ohioline.osu.edu/b856/b856_77.html: > Sucrose 90-100% , glucose 0-10% > 6. Molasses is mostly sucrose with a bit of glucose and fructose > http://www.rhhall.ie/bulletins/molasses_4.htm > 7. Amazake is made by breaking down the starch in brown rice to form > sugars. Since starch is essentially a polymer of glucose, I would guess > that breaking down the starch produces glucose, maltose, and the higher > polymers, i.e. a process similar to the manufacture of barley syrup. Nearly > all of the starch break-down produces produce glucose in the digestive > system. Again, like barley syrup, the rise in bG is a function of how fast > your digestive system splits the glucose out, and how much you feel is > necessary to add to your meal to produce the desired sweetness. > 8. Fruit concentrates are essentially mixtures of glucose, fructose and > sucrose. > http://www.dorway.com/natsweet.html > 9. Fructo-oligosaccharides are non-digestiable. Thus they have some > similarities to Splenda in that they sweeten without raising bG. However, > they are known to produce gas, bloating and diarrhea. They are considered > more of a supplement to improve the mix of gut bacteria when taken in small > doses. As such, they are a bit pricey. (U.S. $0.20 /gram) > http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=129 > 10. Stevia: Any mention of stevia tends to start arguments. Note that is > banned for use as a sweetener in the U.S., Canada and E.U. > http://www.trutinadulcem.com/stevia_update.htm > The E.U. has looked at petitions to approve Stevia many a time, but has not > removed the ban, e.g. > http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/multimedia/webpage/stevia > The most potent argument is: > ". . .The data considered by the Committee indicated that the extract has > the potential to produce adverse effects in the male reproductive system > that could affect fertility and that a metabolite produced by the human gut > microflora, steviol, is genotoxic (ie. damages DNA). . ." > No easy answers, but remember: "If it were easy, they would cut our pay." > Regards > Old Al

Response:

in reply to: >> I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all >> that healthy because they are chemically altered substances.

> A quick look at the list suggests that diabetics can find some >alternative "natural" sweeteners that could solve a lot of our problems. >However, to an organic chemist, this list isn’t as delightful as it might >seem. These sweeteners are either based on fructose, which is considered >especially unhealthy for diabetics, or glucose which raises our bG. >Many of them add a bit of flavor to the sweetened food, and tend to reduce >the rate at which they raise our bG. If you can "cut the dose" because of >superior flavor, or if your impaired glucose metabolism can keep up with >the retarded release of glucose into the blood, then some of the substitutes >will do well for you. However, none of them are the "magic bullet" which >will let us casually eat "naturally-sweetened" desserts while avoiding >augmenting our insulin in order to do so.

Hi Al and Kenneth As soon as I saw the original post I knew the knee-jerk reactions would come. Therefore it was so refreshing to see a reasoned, logical and informative reply. Thanks for the education. Posts like this are the reason I hang around here. Cheers Alan, T2, Oz

Response:

What I would like to know is what quantities of fructose were consumed to have the adverse effect on blood lipids, and its effects in glycating haemoglobin? For someone (like me) following a carbohydrate-restricted diet, where the mass of carbs in fructose is taken into account in the overall carb quantity consumed, would fructose still adversely affect my lipids? My meter indicates moderate rise in blood glucose when using small quantities of fructose as a sweetener. On the use of stevia, I understand that it is banned for use in the US and parts of Europe, yet it is widely used in Japan and Brazil. What studies conclusively found the adverse effects of the use of Stevia? Whilst not in the same context, marijuana is banned in the US and most of Europe, yet is about to be legalised in the Netherlands. Is there sufficient scientific proof from independent studies that conclusively finds that Stevia is unsuitable for human consumption, and if so why does the Japanese Government choose to ignore it? Stevia is available here in South Africa, about at about twice the price of Nutrasweet equivalents. Splenda has not been approved and is unavailable. I have tried both Stevia and fructose, and would appreciate a balanced and knowledgeable answer to some of my questions. Mano Govender T2 since March 2002

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

>> I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all > that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been > researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I > know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. > Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at >Keith this is not a place to sell your ares or push alternatives to SAFE >sugar substitutes by saying they are unhealthy. >In a word or two Get Lost.

Hi Ronnie. Believe it or not I generally agree with you and value what you say – although I don’t often post that. I doubt that you care anyway. I also have no time or sympathy for spam. But I’m a little sick of the automatic knee-jerk reactions some legitimate posters get. Not all of us have the experience and knowledge of past flames and wars here. A little polite background on that history instead of "Get Lost" might be more useful to all of us. It was a fair question from a guy trying to learn. Do a google to read Kenneth’s (not Keith’s) intro post from 28 January. Then an apology might be nice, although unexpected. Alan

Response:

Unfortunately, many posters appear to be ill-mannered and just plain mean-spirited. Their comments are usually worthless.

Response:

Thanks Al, This post was so informative that I’ve saved it for future reference, I hope you don’t mind. Annette

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all >> that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been >> researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I >> know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. >> Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at >> http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: >> 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with >> negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum >> disease. >> 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low >> in calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights >> gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. >> 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of >> calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b >> vitamins and minerals. >> 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the >> calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, >> and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. >> 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is >> often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from >> the tea tree. >> 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very >> high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness >> is due to the same molecules as sugar. >> 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the >> blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or >> spreads, often organically grown. >> 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, >> millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B >> vitamins. >> 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is >> actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of >> calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. >> 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to >> raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so >unhealthy. >> Best, >> Kenneth > A quick look at the list suggests that diabetics can find some > alternative "natural" sweeteners that could solve a lot of our problems. > However, to an organic chemist, this list isn’t as delightful as it might > seem. These sweeteners are either based on fructose, which is considered > especially unhealthy for diabetics, or glucose which raises our bG. > Many of them add a bit of flavor to the sweetened food, and tend to reduce > the rate at which they raise our bG. If you can "cut the dose" because of > superior flavor, or if your impaired glucose metabolism can keep up with > the retarded release of glucose into the blood, then some of the substitutes > will do well for you. However, none of them are the "magic bullet" which > will let us casually eat "naturally-sweetened" desserts while avoiding > augmenting our insulin in order to do so. > 1. Fructose: At first glance, fructose sounds like an ideal sweetener > since it raises bG so slowly. However, the latest findings on fructose > indicate that it is bad for normies, and very bad for Insulin Resistant > folks. It degrades the already poor T2 lipid profiles. > http://www.mendosa.com/diabetes_update_28.htm > "The organization’s (ADA) new statement, which is in the January 2002 issue > of Diabetes Care and available on-line at no charge at > http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/25/1/202, for the first > time, however, says that we should avoid fructose other than that which > occurs naturally in fruit. This is in spite of the fact that fructose causes > less of a rise in blood glucose than sugar. Specifically, its glycemic index > is 32 (where white bread = 100), while table sugar (sucrose) has a GI of 92. > Then, why avoid fructose? Because "fructose may adversely effect plasma > lipids," the ADA says. . . > . . .While the new statement didn’t cite sources for the effect of fructose > on lipids, they are easily found. One person who has campaigned vigorously > against fructose for years is Nancy Appleton, the author of Lick the Sugar > Habit (Garden City Park, N.Y.: Avery Publishing Group, 1996). Ms. Appleton > writes on page 90 of her book: > Dr. J. Hallfrisch studied cholesterol and triglyceride levels and found that > fructose, unfortunately, caused a general increase in both the total serum > cholesterol level and the low-density lipoprotein fraction of cholesterol in > most subjects. The triglyceride levels also rose significantly, especially > in those persons whose blood sugar levels rise higher than normal when they > eat sugar. It was concluded that high levels of dietary fructose can produce > undesirable changes in blood lipid levels, which are associated with heart > disease. . . ." > (BTW: Quentin has found this statement repeated in very reputable > scientific journals) > 2. Barley Syrup is essentially Maltose. Maltose is two molecules of > glucose stuck together. It splits in the digestive system and enters our > bodies as glucose. Its effect on bG is going to be a function of how fast > your digestive system processes the maltose, and the amount you feel is > necessary to add to food to produce the desired sweetness. > 3. Table Sugar: Sucrose > Sucrose is a molecule containing one molecule of glucose and one molecule of > fructose stuck together. It is split in our digestive systems to form a mix > of 50% glucose and 50% fructose. One could argue that the worst thing table > sugar does to a diabetic is load us with all that fructose. > 4. Honey is a mixture of fructose, glucose and a little bit of maltose and > sucrose (table sugar).

http://www.ento.vt.edu/~fell/apiculture/HoneyComposition/honey_compo sition.h – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> tm > Fructose 38%, Glucose 31%, Maltose 7% sucrose ~1.2 > As such, it contains about as much fructose as table sugar (that 7% maltose > ends up as glucose) and is just as hazardous to our lipid profiles. > 5. Maple syrup is mostly "table sugar" dissolved in water with a few > flavoring ingredients. > http://ohioline.osu.edu/b856/b856_77.html: > Sucrose 90-100% , glucose 0-10% > 6. Molasses is mostly sucrose with a bit of glucose and fructose > http://www.rhhall.ie/bulletins/molasses_4.htm > 7. Amazake is made by breaking down the starch in brown rice to form > sugars. Since starch is essentially a polymer of glucose, I would guess > that breaking down the starch produces glucose, maltose, and the higher > polymers, i.e. a process similar to the manufacture of barley syrup. Nearly > all of the starch break-down produces produce glucose in the digestive > system. Again, like barley syrup, the rise in bG is a function of how fast > your digestive system splits the glucose out, and how much you feel is > necessary to add to your meal to produce the desired sweetness. > 8. Fruit concentrates are essentially mixtures of glucose, fructose and > sucrose. > http://www.dorway.com/natsweet.html > 9. Fructo-oligosaccharides are non-digestiable. Thus they have some > similarities to Splenda in that they sweeten without raising bG. However, > they are known to produce gas, bloating and diarrhea. They are considered > more of a supplement to improve the mix of gut bacteria when taken in small > doses. As such, they are a bit pricey. (U.S. $0.20 /gram)

http://www.supplementwatch.com/supatoz/supplement.asp?supplementId=1 29 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> 10. Stevia: Any mention of stevia tends to start arguments. Note that is > banned for use as a sweetener in the U.S., Canada and E.U. > http://www.trutinadulcem.com/stevia_update.htm > The E.U. has looked at petitions to approve Stevia many a time, but has not > removed the ban, e.g. > http://www.foodstandards.gov.uk/multimedia/webpage/stevia > The most potent argument is: > ". . .The data considered by the Committee indicated that the extract has > the potential to produce adverse effects in the male reproductive system > that could affect fertility and that a metabolite produced by the human gut > microflora, steviol, is genotoxic (ie. damages DNA). . ." > No easy answers, but remember: "If it were easy, they would cut our pay." > Regards > Old Al

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Response:

cc’d by email Ken, you have been scammed Stevia is a poison Artificial sweeteners are not You have bought the Betty Martini line, hook line and sinker. DO NOT PUSH SCAMS ON THE NEWSGROUP Your posting history shows that you are probably not a troll, just a VERY misguided person

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all > that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been > researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I > know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. Could > I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at > http://www.organicfood.co.uk/inspiration/tenways_sugar.html: > 1. Stevia is a herb that is 300 times sweeter than sugar, with > negligible calories. It’s also believed to reduce tooth decay and gum > disease. > 2. Fructo-oligosaccharides (FOS) granules are mildly sweet and low in > calories. FOS stimulates bifido bacteria in the gut, which fights > gastro-intestinal infections and food poisoning. > 3. Barley syrup is as sweet as sugar with the same amount of > calories, but raises blood sugar more gently. It also contains b > vitamins and minerals. > 4. Maple syrup is delicious and sweet, with just over half the > calories of sugar. It contains small amounts of vitamins and minerals, > and is made from the sap of maple trees over forty years old. > 5. Honey has less calories than sugar, but is almost as sweet. It is > often antibiotic, especially manuka honey which is made with pollen from > the tea tree. > 6. Blackstrap molasses is a by-product of sugar refining. It’s very > high in iron and has less calories than sugar. However, it’s sweetness > is due to the same molecules as sugar. > 7. Fruit concentrates are lower in calories than sugar and raise the > blood sugar more gently. You can get fruit concentrates as liquids or > spreads, often organically grown. > 8. Amazake is very low in calories and is made by fermenting rice, > millet or quinoa. It’s a traditional food from Japan, and is high in B > vitamins. > 9. Fructose is marketed as a natural alternative to sugar, but is > actually manufactured from industrial glucose. It has the same amount of > calories as sugar, but does raise blood sugar very slowly. > 10. Glucose has more calories than sugar and is the quickest way to > raise your blood sugar level. It is for this reason that it is so > unhealthy. > Best, > Kenneth

To all, thanks for the replies and accept my apologies for posting such an inappropriate topic. I had no idea that this was such a touchy topic. I was genuinely searching for a better alternative to chemically altered sweeteners, and thought that this group would provide honest answers to the validity of these listed. I’m certainly not affiliated with any kind of commercial organization trying to sell or push these alternatives on people, and regret that I may have been labled with that image in the newsgroup. Nor have I purchased, used, or invested in any of these in any way. That was my whole point to posting the list here for feedback before going down any road. It was not my intention to push, instigate, or otherwise promote anything that could be considered a scam on this newsgroup. That being said, thanks very much to oldal for the informative breakdown. It’s much appreciated. Seems like artificial is the way to go for now. I’ll avoid posting anything similar in the future. Best, Kenneth

Response:

> Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at > all?

Hello, The college clinic is in the process of helping. I’ve been going back and forth between a few of their ‘hospitals’ for weeks now. Apparently the ear infection is cleared up, but I have a sinus cold now. Unfortunately, I’m still getting dizzy and nobody seems to know why. Each time I see the doctors I raise my concerns about it, but they just kind of look at my paperwork, have a general puzzled look on their face, and blow it off. They tell me to check my blood sugar whenever it happens, and I do, but it doesn’t really seem to correspond to anything. It could be high or low or good. It’s been varying pretty greatly as of late though. The other day 2 hours after lunch it was 52, and I must have eaten too much to bring it up (4 or 5 peppermints and a small burrito), because by supper it was exactly 300. Good thing is that I’ll be actually going to the diabetic clinic on the 10th. I finally got the proper referrals and an appointment set up. Every encouragement they have for is that I’ll be able to get many if not all of my medications on their financial aid programs. I’m very much looking forward to that help. I did go to an asthma clinic this past Monday. The asthma is something that I’ve put on the back burner because of the seriousness of the diabetes, but apparently I’m taking my rescue inhaler too much. They gave me a prescription for Advair, which I haven’t got filled yet (waiting on the financial help that I’ll be applying for when I go to the diabetic clinic). Any experiences here on whether or not that affects diabetes. I was thinking that the rescue inhaler could be why my pulse is so high (averages between 85-110 resting), but they told me that it usually doens’t have /that/ big of an affect on it. I don’t know what to think about it all really… I’m just kind of taking things one day at a time, and trying not to get bitter or frustrated with it all. Best, Ken

Response:

It sounds like you are doing the best you can right now. I hope the medication help comes through for you. Next time you go low try not to overtreat the hypo. Going hypo can make you hungry and crave carbs. You can eat too much carb and it sends it flying the other way. After a period of time you may see that your numbers do start to become more even without a lot of peaks and valleys. I’m glad you’re going to a diabetes education class. Some of the information you get will be good. It should teach you a lot about portions and what exactly a "small portion" really is. We are so inundated with super size everything that a lot of people have forgotten what a 1/2 cup or 1oz. portion of something looks like. Be in for some real surprises there! — c website http://www.plazaearth.com/philo

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at > all? > Hello, > The college clinic is in the process of helping. I’ve been going back > and forth between a few of their ‘hospitals’ for weeks now. Apparently > the ear infection is cleared up, but I have a sinus cold now. > Unfortunately, I’m still getting dizzy and nobody seems to know why. > Each time I see the doctors I raise my concerns about it, but they just > kind of look at my paperwork, have a general puzzled look on their face, > and blow it off. They tell me to check my blood sugar whenever it > happens, and I do, but it doesn’t really seem to correspond to anything. > It could be high or low or good. It’s been varying pretty greatly as > of late though. The other day 2 hours after lunch it was 52, and I must > have eaten too much to bring it up (4 or 5 peppermints and a small > burrito), because by supper it was exactly 300. > Good thing is that I’ll be actually going to the diabetic clinic on the > 10th. I finally got the proper referrals and an appointment set up. > Every encouragement they have for is that I’ll be able to get many if > not all of my medications on their financial aid programs. I’m very > much looking forward to that help. > I did go to an asthma clinic this past Monday. The asthma is something > that I’ve put on the back burner because of the seriousness of the > diabetes, but apparently I’m taking my rescue inhaler too much. They > gave me a prescription for Advair, which I haven’t got filled yet > (waiting on the financial help that I’ll be applying for when I go to > the diabetic clinic). Any experiences here on whether or not that > affects diabetes. I was thinking that the rescue inhaler could be why > my pulse is so high (averages between 85-110 resting), but they told me > that it usually doens’t have /that/ big of an affect on it. > I don’t know what to think about it all really… I’m just kind of > taking things one day at a time, and trying not to get bitter or > frustrated with it all. > Best, > Ken

Response:

Good, great to hear about the finanical aid. I’m begining to realize that those meters and strips are really critical. Perhaps even more so in your case. It must be tough to be on the BG roller-coaster, esp. when you have other problems. Have you tried to establish a base-line eating pattern? Same thing for breakfast, lunch, dinner? That got me going in the right direction carb wise. It helps the I’m one of those lucky ones who don’t actually care what I eat Here’s wishing you good news at the diabetes clinic! — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->To all, thanks for the replies and accept my apologies for posting such >an inappropriate topic. I had no idea that this was such a touchy >topic. I was genuinely searching for a better alternative to chemically >altered sweeteners, and thought that this group would provide honest >answers to the validity of these listed. I’m certainly not affiliated >with any kind of commercial organization trying to sell or push these >alternatives on people, and regret that I may have been labled with that >image in the newsgroup. Nor have I purchased, used, or invested in any >of these in any way. That was my whole point to posting the list here >for feedback before going down any road. It was not my intention to >push, instigate, or otherwise promote anything that could be considered >a scam on this newsgroup. >That being said, thanks very much to oldal for the informative >breakdown. It’s much appreciated. Seems like artificial is the way to >go for now. >I’ll avoid posting anything similar in the future. >Best, >Kenneth

Hi Kenneth No apology needed. It was a legitimate question and if you hadn’t posted we would not have received Al’s reply. Feel free to ask any question you need answered. Never let a grumpy or ill-tempered response interfere with your search to beat the dragon. Your question may start a flame war or play into the hands of a troll or scammer – or it may be a critical question that directly affects your treatment of the disease. How will you know if you don’t ask? If you ask a silly question you may get embarrassed or annoy somebody. If you don’t ask an important question you may get diabetic complications. I reckon that outweighs the chance of an abusive answer. Ask whatever you like – just accept that occasionally you’ll ruffle some feathers. Nil Illegitimus Carborundum Cheers Alan, T2, Oz

Response:

>I’ve come to realize that the artificial sweeteners aren’t really all >that healthy because they are chemically altered substances. I’ve been >researching an organic kick today, and came across this link. But I >know next to nothing about how these alternatives affect diabetes. >Could I get some opinions here? Thanks! This listing was found at

none of the alternatives on the healthfood scam sight are good choices for diabetics. the sugar subs on the market (sweet-n-low, equal, aspartame) are harmless. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

Response:

: > Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at : > all? : Hello, : The college clinic is in the process of helping. I’ve been going back : and forth between a few of their ‘hospitals’ for weeks now. Apparently : the ear infection is cleared up, but I have a sinus cold now. : Unfortunately, I’m still getting dizzy and nobody seems to know why. : Each time I see the doctors I raise my concerns about it, but they just : kind of look at my paperwork, have a general puzzled look on their face, : and blow it off. They tell me to check my blood sugar whenever it : happens, and I do, but it doesn’t really seem to correspond to anything. : It could be high or low or good. It’s been varying pretty greatly as : of late though. The other day 2 hours after lunch it was 52, and I must : have eaten too much to bring it up (4 or 5 peppermints and a small : burrito), because by supper it was exactly 300. : Good thing is that I’ll be actually going to the diabetic clinic on the : 10th. I finally got the proper referrals and an appointment set up. : Every encouragement they have for is that I’ll be able to get many if : not all of my medications on their financial aid programs. I’m very : much looking forward to that help. : I did go to an asthma clinic this past Monday. The asthma is something : that I’ve put on the back burner because of the seriousness of the : diabetes, but apparently I’m taking my rescue inhaler too much. They : gave me a prescription for Advair, which I haven’t got filled yet : (waiting on the financial help that I’ll be applying for when I go to : the diabetic clinic). Any experiences here on whether or not that : affects diabetes. I was thinking that the rescue inhaler could be why : my pulse is so high (averages between 85-110 resting), but they told me : that it usually doens’t have /that/ big of an affect on it. : I don’t know what to think about it all really… I’m just kind of : taking things one day at a time, and trying not to get bitter or : frustrated with it all. : Best, : Ken sorry, but deleteing is difficult for me one handed. just one comment on advair. my non-diabetic husband took it this winter for a month for underlying asthma following a bout of pneumonia. it didn.t help and made him hoarse and unable to sing, another friend, a professional singer had the same experience. wendy

Response:

HEY, WENDY! Howse it goin? Don’t reply – I hope they gave you plenty of pain meds. Welcome back. Are you going to be able to set off a metal detector? — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete) The mature man lives quietly, does good privately, assumes personal responsibility for his actions, treats others with friendliness and courtesy, finds mischief boring and keeps out of it. Without this hidden conspiracy of good will, society would not endure an hour. — Kenneth Rexroth —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > : > Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic help at > : > all? > : Hello, > : The college clinic is in the process of helping. I’ve been going back > : and forth between a few of their ‘hospitals’ for weeks now. Apparently > : the ear infection is cleared up, but I have a sinus cold now. > : Unfortunately, I’m still getting dizzy and nobody seems to know why. > : Each time I see the doctors I raise my concerns about it, but they just > : kind of look at my paperwork, have a general puzzled look on their face, > : and blow it off. They tell me to check my blood sugar whenever it > : happens, and I do, but it doesn’t really seem to correspond to anything. > : It could be high or low or good. It’s been varying pretty greatly as > : of late though. The other day 2 hours after lunch it was 52, and I must > : have eaten too much to bring it up (4 or 5 peppermints and a small > : burrito), because by supper it was exactly 300. > : Good thing is that I’ll be actually going to the diabetic clinic on the > : 10th. I finally got the proper referrals and an appointment set up. > : Every encouragement they have for is that I’ll be able to get many if > : not all of my medications on their financial aid programs. I’m very > : much looking forward to that help. > : I did go to an asthma clinic this past Monday. The asthma is something > : that I’ve put on the back burner because of the seriousness of the > : diabetes, but apparently I’m taking my rescue inhaler too much. They > : gave me a prescription for Advair, which I haven’t got filled yet > : (waiting on the financial help that I’ll be applying for when I go to > : the diabetic clinic). Any experiences here on whether or not that > : affects diabetes. I was thinking that the rescue inhaler could be why > : my pulse is so high (averages between 85-110 resting), but they told me > : that it usually doens’t have /that/ big of an affect on it. > : I don’t know what to think about it all really… I’m just kind of > : taking things one day at a time, and trying not to get bitter or > : frustrated with it all. > : Best, > : Ken > sorry, but deleteing is difficult for me one handed. just one comment on > advair. my non-diabetic husband took it this winter for a month for > underlying asthma > following a bout of pneumonia. it didn.t help and made him hoarse and > unable to sing, another friend, a professional singer had the same > experience. > wendy

Response:

: HEY, WENDY! : Howse it goin? : Don’t reply – I hope they gave you plenty of pain meds. : Welcome back. : Are you going to be able to set off a metal detector? : — : t2_lurking : geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom : Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete) : The mature man lives quietly, does good privately, : assumes personal responsibility for his actions, : treats others with friendliness and courtesy, : finds mischief boring and keeps out of it. : Without this hidden conspiracy of good will, : society would not endure an hour. : — Kenneth Rexroth — it is going somewhat better, the pain is much less and i actually have pain free interludes. i am trying to keep moving my shoulder a bit to help prevent frozen shoulder. i will have problems with plane travel and will have to carry a doctor’s note to show the security people. can’t you just hear them saying "hey, this lady is carrying a sword inside her arm." can’t write much yet, as my writing position is rather contorted. fighting to keep the bgs down with all the atress. i am using my prandid much more, at both lunch and dinner. am beginning to get lows after lunch, so my physical stress may well be lessening. wendy : > : > : > Hi Ken, whats the update on your situation? Did the college clinic : help at : > : > all? : > : > : Hello, : > : > : The college clinic is in the process of helping. I’ve been going back : > : and forth between a few of their ‘hospitals’ for weeks now. Apparently : > : the ear infection is cleared up, but I have a sinus cold now. : > : Unfortunately, I’m still getting dizzy and nobody seems to know why. : > : Each time I see the doctors I raise my concerns about it, but they just : > : kind of look at my paperwork, have a general puzzled look on their face, : > : and blow it off. They tell me to check my blood sugar whenever it : > : happens, and I do, but it doesn’t really seem to correspond to anything. : > : It could be high or low or good. It’s been varying pretty greatly as : > : of late though. The other day 2 hours after lunch it was 52, and I must : > : have eaten too much to bring it up (4 or 5 peppermints and a small : > : burrito), because by supper it was exactly 300. : > : > : Good thing is that I’ll be actually going to the diabetic clinic on the : > : 10th. I finally got the proper referrals and an appointment set up. : > : Every encouragement they have for is that I’ll be able to get many if : > : not all of my medications on their financial aid programs. I’m very : > : much looking forward to that help. : > : > : I did go to an asthma clinic this past Monday. The asthma is something : > : that I’ve put on the back burner because of the seriousness of the : > : diabetes, but apparently I’m taking my rescue inhaler too much. They : > : gave me a prescription for Advair, which I haven’t got filled yet : > : (waiting on the financial help that I’ll be applying for when I go to : > : the diabetic clinic). Any experiences here on whether or not that : > : affects diabetes. I was thinking that the rescue inhaler could be why : > : my pulse is so high (averages between 85-110 resting), but they told me : > : that it usually doens’t have /that/ big of an affect on it. : > : > : I don’t know what to think about it all really… I’m just kind of : > : taking things one day at a time, and trying not to get bitter or : > : frustrated with it all. : > : > : Best, : > : Ken : > : > sorry, but deleteing is difficult for me one handed. just one comment on : > advair. my non-diabetic husband took it this winter for a month for : > underlying asthma : > following a bout of pneumonia. it didn.t help and made him hoarse and : > unable to sing, another friend, a professional singer had the same : > experience. : > : > wendy : > : >

Response:

Frustrated.

admin — Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

>I did ask the nurse what my A1C was. It’s 9.4. I’ve heard from people >in here that it should be in the 5 range… which means, as expected, >I’ve not been doing a good job. But the nurse said that the really >critical zone it up around 20 or so. The other elevated reading, my >white blood count, was 15.3 (the range listed for this was 4.5-11.0). >So at least as of Friday I had an infection, not sure of how bad of one. > I’ve been taking my antibiotics as instructed. >I’m really too tired and frustrated with the ’system’ to digest any more >tonight. I’m headed to bed. >Thanks, >Kenneth

Kenneth, I suppose she was right to say 20 is really critical. It’s just that I’d consider it critical long before you approached 20. However, 9.4 aint too bad if you are in the process now ofr doing something about it. I hate to add to your woes, but a WBC of 15.3 would ring alarm bells with me. Do you have any previous WBC readings for comparison; did they check neutrophils, lymphocytes, platelets, IGs etc? I would at least go back to them and ask the doc to clarify your situation. Best of luck; Cheers – Alan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > >I did ask the nurse what my A1C was. It’s 9.4. I’ve heard from people >in here that it should be in the 5 range… which means, as expected, >I’ve not been doing a good job. But the nurse said that the really >critical zone it up around 20 or so. The other elevated reading, my >white blood count, was 15.3 (the range listed for this was 4.5-11.0). >So at least as of Friday I had an infection, not sure of how bad of one. > I’ve been taking my antibiotics as instructed. >I’m really too tired and frustrated with the ’system’ to digest any more >tonight. I’m headed to bed. >Thanks, >Kenneth > Kenneth, I suppose she was right to say 20 is really critical. It’s > just that I’d consider it critical long before you approached 20. > However, 9.4 aint too bad if you are in the process now ofr doing > something about it. > I hate to add to your woes, but a WBC of 15.3 would ring alarm bells > with me. Do you have any previous WBC readings for comparison; did > they check neutrophils, lymphocytes, platelets, IGs etc? I would at > least go back to them and ask the doc to clarify your situation. Best > of luck; > Cheers – Alan

I’m not sure if going back to that hospital would even be an option to me. The nurse that I talked to said that they are about to close the clinic (with only one doctor for the entire hospital), and that waits may be 24 hours or longer. How sad is that? Check into a hospital, then come back the next day to see if they’ve called your number or not. Yikes. I also neglected to mention that my pulse is high. It’s been running between 90 and 120. I’ve always had a high pulse rate though, so I’m not sure if that matters for anything. I’m asthmatic and take albuterol, which may also contribute to rising pulse rates. Kenneth

Response:

Hello all, me again. I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally feeling, well, ‘funny.’ I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. Thanks, Kenneth

Response:

> Hello all, me again. > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > feeling, well, ‘funny.’

If your BG is fluctuating wildly, you will feel funny. > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere.

Hmmm… That must be frustrating to be getting conflicting information like that. > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips.

If you do have an infection, that in itself could be the cause of your high BG. And when your BG is high, you might feel hungry all the time. Once you get that BG down, you might have less trouble with food. > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. > Someone dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it.

I’ve always been very careful with my diet, so perhaps that’s why it’s easier for me to adhere to it now. Although at times, I sure wish I could eat whatever I wanted. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

Response:

Hi Kenneth, I’m sorry to hear about your difficulties. At some point, you’ll need to take responsibility for your own care and enlist your family to help you. Until you’re conscious of what you’re eating and doing, I don’t think things will get better. — T2 – HbA1c: 4.7% http://www.bollar.org/diabetes.htm

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve come to discover that I > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > I ate them. Both without even thinking.

Response:

> I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get > it out of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above > levels that it had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come > to discover that I have minimal willpower when food is in front of > me. If it’s there, I typically eat it. Someone in my family > brought me a few cookies yesterday and I ate them, and later > brought me some pineapple slices and I ate them. Both without > even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last night. I was very > upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to keep myself > from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips.

I understand too well your frustration. As you probably know, diet (and the dreaded exercise) are the most important things to get under control. I’m once again doing battle with getting both under control myself. The best technique I have found is to record every single thing you eat or drink. The purpose is to bring more consciousness to what you are eating, which eventually leads to better control. It is even more helpful to record the number of grams of carbohydrate in the food. Then you can start to see patterns with carb grams vs. blood glucose test results. Bang your head against the wall of high carbs = high sugar often enough, and you begin to give yourself the message. Record the water you drink too, to make sure you get enough (8 8-oz glasses a day is the recommended amount). I find that exercise helps reduce blood sugars a lot, though it may take a week to see an effect at the beginning. My readings were high this morning, so it is a priority for me to do more walking today to get the readings back down. (I’m especially motivated because I just finished a series of laser eye surgeries to deal with severe diabetic retinopathy and bleeding in the right eye — one of the many complications of diabetes.) Guy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hello all, me again. > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. > Thanks, > Kenneth

Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this morning it had risen into the 190’s. On the positive side, I’ve given everyone at my company a scare and they’re looking at a few insurance policies now. Thanks for listening, it’s much appreciated. Kenneth

Response:

I’m not going to pretend that I have as much knowledge as the other posters but, It sounds like there’s some liver dumping going on. If your body doesn’t have some carbs to chew on it will call on the liver to "dump" some glucose into your bloodstream. Ditto for the morning spike, it’s called "Dawn Phenomena" or something, it’s your body trying to wake up. Also when I had shingles early on in my dx my BG’s were all over the place. — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, me again. > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. > Thanks, > Kenneth > Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling > bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this > morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since > breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some > eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem > before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around > 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it > and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this > morning it had risen into the 190’s. > On the positive side, I’ve given everyone at my company a scare and > they’re looking at a few insurance policies now. > Thanks for listening, it’s much appreciated. > Kenneth

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Ken, for 1 day (24 hours) eat ZERO carbs. See how you do. If you are happy with the result, the next day eat Zero carbs plus 1 slice of bread. Repeat the next day and add another slice of bread. Keep doing that untill your result is too high. You will then know how may carbs you can eat without getting into trouble. PJ

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, me again. > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look > at my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it > out of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels > that it had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover > that I have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s > there, I typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few > cookies yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple > slices and I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar > was 220 last night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking > real will power to keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea > of test strips. > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act > together. I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of > mine. Someone dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that > motivation rarely preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on > it. > Thanks, > Kenneth > Thanks for the support and ideas. I’ll be going back to the hospital > this afternoon. I agree that what I’ve got doesn’t seem like a minor > thing. I’ve never felt this way and the antibiotics don’t seem to have > made a heck of a lot of difference up to this point. I should be > feeling better than I am by now. I’ll keep you all posted as to what I > find. I’ll try to see if I can find out what my A1C was on the blood > test that I took Friday. > I took my blood sugar at lunch today and it was 163. A slight > improvement, but not nearly good enough. > Thanks, > Kenneth

Just a quick followup before bed. I went to the charity hospital this evening, but didn’t even get in to see a doctor. By 8 pm there was still somebody waiting to be seen that had been there since 9 am. I figured since I didn’t get there until 3:30 I wouldn’t be able to get in before they started turning patients out. Apparently the hospital has been victim to a number of budget cuts recently. Go figure. I did ask the nurse what my A1C was. It’s 9.4. I’ve heard from people in here that it should be in the 5 range… which means, as expected, I’ve not been doing a good job. But the nurse said that the really critical zone it up around 20 or so. The other elevated reading, my white blood count, was 15.3 (the range listed for this was 4.5-11.0). So at least as of Friday I had an infection, not sure of how bad of one. I’ve been taking my antibiotics as instructed. I’m really too tired and frustrated with the ’system’ to digest any more tonight. I’m headed to bed. Thanks, Kenneth

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says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, me again. > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. > Thanks, > Kenneth >Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling >bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this >morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since >breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some >eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem >before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around >3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it >and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this >morning it had risen into the 190’s. >On the positive side, I’ve given everyone at my company a scare and >they’re looking at a few insurance policies now. >Thanks for listening, it’s much appreciated. >Kenneth

Do you have a digital thermometer so you can determine just what your temperature is? If you have an infection AND a fever you’re going to have real problems getting your bg under control, as your bod chemisty will be messed up. I had a minor cellulitis attack a few days ago and my bg spiked like nobody’s business and took several days to get normal again. Keep on your diet, but get that infection whipped ASAP, no matter where it is. Good luck FW

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Thanks for the support and ideas. I’ll be going back to the hospital this afternoon. I agree that what I’ve got doesn’t seem like a minor thing. I’ve never felt this way and the antibiotics don’t seem to have made a heck of a lot of difference up to this point. I should be feeling better than I am by now. I’ll keep you all posted as to what I find. I’ll try to see if I can find out what my A1C was on the blood test that I took Friday. I took my blood sugar at lunch today and it was 163. A slight improvement, but not nearly good enough. Thanks, Kenneth

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Ed your post motivated me, very well said. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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Hi there Kenneth, I want to go back to Julie’s earlier post and also suggest that you may have some kind of serious infection that needs treating. Although all the advice (well nearly all), about controlling diabetes, is good, but until you get the infection dealt with, you are not going to be able to control the high bg, or get rid of those symptoms of being feverish and dizzy. Me, I’d be going with the original dx, it sound more likely. Do you have a home thermometer? If so, take your temperature when you feel feverish, and if it’s higher than normal, see the doc again, and tell him. Insist that you are SICK! Or see a new doctor, if he still does nothing for you. ASAP. The increasing bg levels are dangerous in themselves, without any other consideration. Nothing you describe is the usual things that we see here. All I see from your posts is a condition that is deteriorating. You need GOOD medical help, NOW. Please take action. and Look after yourself. Annette — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

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Have you been checked for menieres disease Kenneth That is an infection of the inner ear. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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> Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling > bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this > morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since > breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some > eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem > before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around > 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it > and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this > morning it had risen into the 190’s. > On the positive side, I’ve given everyone at my company a scare and > they’re looking at a few insurance policies now. > Thanks for listening, it’s much appreciated.

High BG can cause the same symptoms as low BG. I have had trouble with this when I had ulcers on my legs that became infected and also when I’ve had sinus infections that would not go away. I had to go on additional meds and also do extreme low carb. Even at that, the numbers were too high. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all, me again. > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. > Thanks, > Kenneth > Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling > bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this > morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since > breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some > eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem > before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around > 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it > and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this > morning it had risen into the 190’s. > On the positive side, I’ve given everyone at my company a scare and > they’re looking at a few insurance policies now. > Thanks for listening, it’s much appreciated. > Kenneth

Sorry if I miss the thrust of this thread but I’m out of town, borrowing computers, and thus a bit "out-of-the-loop". I hope somebody has mentioned that: a. You are a diabetic. Thus by definition, you have a deficiency of insulin. b. If your blood sugars are too high, you can either: i. Cut your carbohydrate consumption ii. Use medicines which improve your Insulin Resistance iii. Use medicines which augment yur insulin supply. You may mix and match as you please. It sounds like you aren’t doing that well on cutting carb; perhaps it’s time to add some meds. Folks in Early Days of diagnosed diabetes often suffer from Glucose Toxicity which is a totally fouled up glucose metabolism caused by long periods of high blood sugar before diagnosis. If you are in Glucose Toxicity, much of what you learn about sugar control now will be too conservative after you manage to normalize your sugars and knock out the Glucose Toxicity. Some docs just pile on the meds to knock out the G.T as soon as possible, then cut back on the meds afterwards (It’s an inconvenient approach but it minimizes damage due to high blood sugars, i.e. you get to live longer). Some docs just let their patients flounder their way through it. Some diabetics never get out of Glucose Toxicity and die young after years of pain. Remember that injected insulin always works, and an insulin regime can be "cancelled" anytime you figure out an easier way to control sugars. Regards Old Al

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – >Hello all, me again. >I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring >out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling >occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally >feeling, well, ‘funny.’ >I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I >left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at >my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection >was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that >doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. >That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was >high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. >I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my >hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out >of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it >had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I >have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I >typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies >yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and >I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last >night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to >keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. >Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. >Someone dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely >preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. >Thanks, >Kenneth

Ken, Have you ever thought of sitting your family members down and explaining diabetes to them, what good target BGs are and what junk food and excessive eating do to diabetes control and then asking them to help you by not bringing you the wrong foods and maybe helping to remind you that when you eat to much you might want to cut back and test your BG? letting the family help and support you means you need to let them call you on your bad behavior as well as give you the pat on the back when you are doing good. If you have the ability to let them in and practice a little humility it has the potential for making your family ties a bit stronger. Mack Type 1 since 1975 http://www.alt-support-diabetes.org http://www.insulin-pumpers.org In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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. > > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. > Thanks, > Kenneth

Ken, Ed here Motivation is the key.I found myself in the same boat as you(the Titanic)and felt sorry for myself. People noticed my weight gain but kept comments to themselves except my father(alzheimers) he said i looked like a prime minister.seriously though, i did not get motivated until i stood naked in front of a mirror and confronted myself. Wheres my inner warrior i asked? where are you ? i need you to take over and save me.The warrior is there ken! get him out in front and follow him. Mine forbade me to eat out with the family because it knew i had no willpower, mine went shopping for me, salads,whole grains, chicken, sugar free/fat free products.Okay i’m off on a tangent, but you know what i mean..Get angry!,mean! and find the strength.No one can do it for you but yourself…I still binge, and i have a headache today for that weakness, such is the war.Its a daily battle, and you cant see the end of the tunnel but fight on my friend fight on.I’ll try to lend you a hand when you need it..Ed

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Ken the relative that brought you the cookies, was not a friend to you, Pineapple is a very hard fruit to do and portin control is of the utmost imporltance, We can lead the horse to water, but we cant make you drink, If you dont have the wont power not to eat those foods, they should not be present in your house, Dont buy them thinking you are buying it for someone, Dont be a self sabateour, You have to decide what is more important eating some cookies and having high numbers which make you ill. or maybe eating one small cookie and being in a normal range, It is hard to go from eating anything and everything whenever you wanted, to being careful of the foods you consume You are in charge of your decisions and in charge of your diabetes, It is up to you, which what are your druthers. I wish you luck, This didnt happen in a day, and it wont take a day to be in control,. but you have to make the effort. Loretta — In tribute to the United States of America and the State of Israel, two bastions of strength in a world filled with strife and terrorism.

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Kenneth, what meds are you on again? I’m sorry. Sounds like you’re having DP. I found my DP to happen between 5am-9am right during the time I would eat bfast. I found my basal needed to be upped right before 5am thru 10am and extra bolus when I eat. It’s a fine line to learn what works, have to have patience and try, try try different things. If you’re on insulin, I’d suggest to test prior to bed, eat at least 4-5hrs before bed. no snack, then when you wake test, go till after 1pm test again. If your pretty constant with your fbg, your basal over night is set correctly, if your higher then you need to adjust it, either increase it or change the time taking it, so it peaks when you have DP hitting. don’t worry about the inbetween highs right now, you’ll have them until you get whatever is wrong fixed you will only end up frustrating yourself causing stress which will also raise you, trying to figure it out. Make it a game, your reward is LOW BG’s.. highs are.. oops damn gotta try again.. don’t let it get ya down.. took me over 3yrs to figure myself out. now my new endo, doesn’t want me going to the pump review class because he’s scared they’ll have me teach it.. after i start commenting.. LOL — RK T1 – 5/00

: > Hello all, me again. : > : > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring : > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling : > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally : > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ : > : > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I : > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at : > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection : > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that : > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. : > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was : > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. : > : > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my : > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out : > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it : > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I : > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I : > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies : > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and : > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last : > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to : > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. : > : > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. : > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone : > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely : > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. : > : > Thanks, : > Kenneth : > : : Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling : bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this : morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since : breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some : eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem : before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around : 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it : and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this : morning it had risen into the 190’s. : : On the positive side, I’ve given everyone at my company a scare and : they’re looking at a few insurance policies now. : : Thanks for listening, it’s much appreciated. : : Kenneth :

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OMG who gave you that advice to pass on? — RK T1 – 5/00

: : > > Hello all, me again. : > > : > > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring : > > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling : > > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally : > > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ : > > : > > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I : > > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at : > > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection : > > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that : > > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. : > > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was : > > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. : > > : > > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my : > > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out : > > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it : > > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I : > > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I : > > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies : > > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and : > > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last : > > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to : > > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. : > > : > > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. : > > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone : > > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely : > > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. : > > : > > Thanks, : > > Kenneth : > > : > : > Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling : > bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this : > morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since : > breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some : > eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem : > before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around : > 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it : > and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this : > morning it had risen into the 190’s. : : > Kenneth : : : Ken, for 1 day (24 hours) eat ZERO carbs. See how you do. : : If you are happy with the result, the next day eat Zero carbs plus 1 slice of bread. : : Repeat the next day and add another slice of bread. : : Keep doing that untill your result is too high. : You will then know how may carbs you can eat without getting into trouble. : : PJ : :

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I’m not trying to cause trouble but, ARE YOU JOKING OR WHAT!

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hello all, me again. > > I’m still working at getting my blood sugar under control and figuring > > out what’s wrong with me in the first place. I’m still feeling > > occasionally light-headed, slow to move and respond, and generally > > feeling, well, ‘funny.’ > > I went to my fiancee’s clinic yesterday on the way home from work (I > > left early, I wasn’t much good) to have her doctor take a quick look at > > my ear (where the doctor at the charity hospital said the infection > > was). He said that my ear looked perfect and he wasn’t sure how that > > doctor could have diagnosed me with having such a bad ear infection. > > That puts me back at square one. But my white blood cell count was > > high, which means I must have an infection somewhere. > > I’m getting frustrated with my blood sugar levels. I’m trying my > > hardest to get it down to the <150 level, but I can’t seem to get it out > > of the 150-200 range. It’s better than the 300 and above levels that it > > had been running, but not good enough. I’ve come to discover that I > > have minimal willpower when food is in front of me. If it’s there, I > > typically eat it. Someone in my family brought me a few cookies > > yesterday and I ate them, and later brought me some pineapple slices and > > I ate them. Both without even thinking. My blood sugar was 220 last > > night. I was very upset with myself, and it’s taking real will power to > > keep myself from feeling like I’m drowning in a sea of test strips. > > Sorry to seem to be complaining. I know I need to get my act together. > > I’m working on it, it’s just never been a strong suit of mine. Someone > > dropped the wisdom tidbit in a prior post that motivation rarely > > preceeds action, which is why I’m working so hard on it. > > Thanks, > > Kenneth > Aaaaaah. Lunchtime now and just checked my blood sugar. I’m feeling > bad again, kind of feverish and a bit more dizzy than I was this > morning. Blood sugar was 223. I haven’t eaten anything since > breakfast, and all I had for breakfast was a piece of toast and some > eggs, nothing unusual. The toast has never caused such a problem > before. It shouldn’t have gone up, not that much. Last night around > 3am, I woke up feeling like I was having low blood sugar, and checked it > and it was 156. I just went back to sleep. By the time I woke up this > morning it had risen into the 190’s. > Kenneth > Ken, for 1 day (24 hours) eat ZERO carbs. See how you do. > If you are happy with the result, the next day eat Zero carbs plus 1 slice of bread. > Repeat the next day and add another slice of bread. > Keep doing that untill your result is too high. > You will then know how may carbs you can eat without getting into trouble. > PJ

Response:

Sorry let me be more clear about which post I’m talking about. > Ken, for 1 day (24 hours) eat ZERO carbs. See how you do. > If you are happy with the result, the next day eat Zero carbs plus 1 slice of bread. > Repeat the next day and add another slice of bread. > Keep doing that untill your result is too high. > You will then know how may carbs you can eat without getting into trouble. > PJ

I’m not trying to cause trouble but, ARE YOU JOKING OR WHAT! — t2_lurking geabbottATabbottandabbottDOTcom Do not mail to t2_lurking (auto-delete)